Tennessee Titans Daily Links: Draft Gurus Be Whizzin' In My Wheaties Edition
by August West on Mar 21, 2011 10:33 AM CDT
in Tennessee Titans Links
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Terry McCormick's triumvirate of draft gurus finally got on my bad side when they absolutely killed Andy Dalton in what's easily the most negative scouting report(s) I've ever seen on the kid. All three guys take the worst case scenario, with one saying any of Dalton's passes longer than 20 yards are 'an adventure'. All I gotta say is that I didn't see much of that in his senior year or during the combine. His deep passes at the combine were picturesque, to the point that it surprised even me. Instead, I submit that Andy Dalton is getting slighted because of what I call the Malachi Effect (don't get it? see here). It's an unfortunate prejudice in our society, but present none the less. Need an example? Think of pretty much ANY movie about kids, and the bully character is almost always a ginger (no offense intended). Jason Jones and Bret Kern are the only Titans to make PFF's all 2008 draft team because Chris Johnson got shafted. PFF picked Jamaal Charles as their RB, despite the fact that CJ has totaled 1654 more yards and 22 more total TDs than Charles over the exact same period of time. I don't care how efficient Charles is, until he can even begin to carry the load in the NFL you can't put him above CJ. Since they're advanced stat guys they're more wowed by efficiency, so I get why they did it, but when the disparity in attempts is that wide you can't just dismiss it when evaluating a players overall value, IMO.
Peter King updates what he's hearing about the veteran QB market (keeping in mind that no one can be traded or signed): Carson Palmer is dead serious about leaving the Bengals and may be pining for the west coast (geographically, not schematically), Andy Reid wants to trade Kevin Kolb and someone may have already offered a 1st round pick, and Marc Bulger is the leader in the clubhouse for the Cardinals spot.
Kenny Britt makes the cut as one of the AFC South receivers to watch in 2011.
Andy Reid confirmed that the Eagles are changing their defensive-line philosophy to match what Jim Washburn did here with the Titans. I think we pretty much all expected that to happen, but hearing from the head guy that they'll switch to the 9-technique with the ends makes it a much more attractive destination for Babin in 2011.
In other Eagles news that should interest Titans fans, Andy Reid also made it clear that Kevin Kolb is on the trading block, and word is that one team has already offered their 1st round pick. PFT thinks it's Seattle
NFP breaksdown Cam Jordan and Da'Quan Bowers.
Former Oilers coach Jerry Glanville will replace new Titans OC Chris Palmer as the head coach of the UFL's Hartford Colonials.
Email me at mcmaugustwest@gmail.coma and be sure to follow me @AugustWest_MCM
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lmao @ the Malachi effect
is that the race card equivalent for gingers?
Malachi is the archtype example of the 'evil ginger kid'
Seriously though, it’s absurd how often that happens in kids movies. Just off the top of my head I can name A Christmas Story, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Billy Madison (the O’doyles)… there are a million more.
Hollywood is nothing if not lazy.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
by August West on Mar 21, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
not a redhead but..
fantastic video.. the kid probably never gets bullied again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-X0I91Gf3s
the title is funny too, he definetely made his best Zangief impression!
There are alot of people rating JC over CJ right now.
And none of them understand that it is much harder to be a feature back than a committee member. Its kind of ridiculous to put value on efficiency when you know that if he was used more his efficiency goes down.
Ain't no time for hesitatin'
All you got to do is groove
by BonzosMontreaux on Mar 21, 2011 10:49 AM CDT reply actions
and how much better would CJ's numbers look
if he wasn’t taking the yeoman carries CJ gets (even if we all think it’s not the best use of his skills) late in games where we’re down or when the passing game is sputtering.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
by August West on Mar 21, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Eagles fan here...
PFF is kind of a joke. (I’m only here, by the way, because I always check out any article that mentions Kevin Kolb, haha), but I noticed that link. Anyway, PFF thinks that there are 90-some receivers in the league that are better than DeSean Jackson, so I always tell our readers to never get too excited if PFF rates an Eagle very favorably, and not to be too concerned if they rate one unfavorably.
I happen to think that Jamaal Charles is an outstanding back, but to even compare him to Chris Johnson (much less call him the better player) is beyond ludicrous.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
by JimmyK on Mar 21, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Posted this comment in another thread but it's more relevant here
I wonder if Dalton love has come from MCM’s lack of trust in the top tier QBs this year. We needed to create a messiah that A) was obtainable and B) didn’t scream bust. Dalton fit the bill, and now we have put the blinders on.
while Pauline’s take on Dalton you can dismiss immediately since it’s only two sentences long, Shonka’s take is not all that negative, and Rang ’s seems to be the most realistic when you are talking about Dalton. Specifically the “He is a quarterback that can lead your team and you can win with him, but not necessarily because of him.”
The Official Pretend Mock GM for the 2011 Music City Miracle Titans.
Go Titans!
I'd say there's definately some truth to that
but I still believe Dalton is a more polished, well-rounded passer and decision maker than any other of the top prospects. I really get the impression that a lot of the guys who have lower grades on Dalton are looking more at his junior year than his senior year. Dalton completely rebuilt his mechanics below the waste before his senior season, and to my eye that fixed a lot of his floating deep throws issue. I could absolutely be wrong about how his physical skills will translate, but there’s a mountain of evidence that convinces me that he’s just as likely to become a top 10 QB in the right situation, but much less likely to completely fail, as any QB in this draft.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
by August West on Mar 21, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough
And I do think that Dalton has the potential to be a Top 10 QB. I also think he can be found in the 3rd or 4th round, so if we grab him, I hope it is there.
The Official Pretend Mock GM for the 2011 Music City Miracle Titans.
Go Titans!
He may not have the ceiling some of the "top" prospects do, but his floor is also much higher I think.
By that I mean…if you pick Gabbert or Newton and they bust, I think they will bust big time. Dalton may “bust” in that you might not get a franchise guy like a Manning or Brady, but you could still get a solid, serviceable QB.
Good evening. I'm Ron Burgundy, and here's what's happening in your world tonight.
by ronburgundy7427 on Mar 21, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I have argued and continue to argue that gambling and losing with a high round bust like Gabbert
may still be a better option than getting a serviceable QB in the middle rounds in the sense that in the 2015 draft I’d rather be picking in slots 1-5 than in 16-19.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
IMO, you don't take a guy if you just think he's "servicable"
and if that’s truly what the Titans scouts think of Dalton, and they wanted my opinion, I’d say don’t take him. I just think he’s going to be much better than serviceable.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
by August West on Mar 21, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I like Dalton a lot but I'm a bit unsure of whether he will ever be an elite QB.
Above average I could see, but I’m not sure if he’ll ever amount to a top 10 QB.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with this.
I happen to think Dalton is going to be a good one, but worst-case scenario I could see him being a Mark Sanchez (whom I happen to think is overrated) where he will be a game-manager type.
WTF I do agree, I don’t want to be the Dolphins picking in the 10-19 range every year because of average-at-best QB play.
Good evening. I'm Ron Burgundy, and here's what's happening in your world tonight.
by ronburgundy7427 on Mar 21, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The game manager just went to his 2nd straight AFC Championship
I can live with a game manager
Fan of: New Jersey Devils, Tennessee Titans, New Jersey Nets, New York Mets, and the U
by NJD28 on Mar 21, 2011 2:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That method only works if you have a top 3 defense.
And in most cases, its still quite rare. The way to win Super Bowls in the NFL is by finding an outstanding QB, not a game manager. You’re always fighting an uphill battle if you go the game manager route.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Plusyou won't be paying him top 5-10 money
Which does wonders for any cap problems that may happen in the future
Fan of: New Jersey Devils, Tennessee Titans, New Jersey Nets, New York Mets, and the U
by NJD28 on Mar 21, 2011 2:56 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
This should be a minimal issue now though with a rookie wage scale pretty much a certainty.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Still the first round is way more expensive then the second-seventh rounds
Fan of: New Jersey Devils, Tennessee Titans, New Jersey Nets, New York Mets, and the U
by NJD28 on Mar 21, 2011 3:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But now on par with the talent level that you should find.
Sure it’ll be more expensive than the second round guys, but its definitely not going to be a 50 million dollar investment anymore.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I realized this morning
That this labor shit that we are going through has really pissed me off more than I thought it would. My enjoyment of this sport is being affected.
They need to fix this shit fast.
by gramsey712 on Mar 21, 2011 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree with this
I am finding myself caring less and less lately. Not meaning i am less of a Titans fan, I am becoming less of an NFL fan.
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
by StPrattrick on Mar 21, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
the NFL for me right now
is like a close friend with a meth problem. i’ll always be his friend, but he’s cut off til after he goes to rehab and gets his shit together.
FIRE MIKE HAMILTON!
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on Mar 21, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Winner
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
by StPrattrick on Mar 21, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I really really hate Kolb
and can not understand why anyone would trade a 1st round pick for him. I think the fact anyone would consider giving up that much adds to my hate of him even more…
Oh yeah, and the Cardinals are never going to have another winning season again. Kurt Warner was their final hope for success… Derek Anderson = Marc Bulger.
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
by StPrattrick on Mar 21, 2011 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
If I was the Eagles
I’d take that trade in a heart beat. Kolb is just a glorified Henne. Everybody wanted to ride Henne when he was doing well and I kept saying he was overrated and then he went on to prove that he was indeed, overrated. Kolb & Henne, overrated 2nd string QB’s. I’d rather have Tyler Thigpen.
Derek Anderson = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jErsW7rgHBs&feature=related
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
by JustinS on Mar 21, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well of course the Eagles should jump on it
I am saying any team willing to give up that much is stupid.
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
by StPrattrick on Mar 21, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I won’t get on you guys too much for bashing Kolb, since he I thought he had a really bad game against the Titans last season, but if you watch his entire body of work on film, it’s fairly clear that Kolb is the real deal.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
It's not that I don't think he is decent
there is just no way he is worth a first round pick. More importantly that the Titans may have been considering trading our first round pick for him…
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
by StPrattrick on Mar 21, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, you weren’t the one calling him a “glorified Henne,” and saying you’d rather have Tyler Thigpen. Anyway, I can understand not wanting to trade your 1 (especially at… what are you guys… 8th overall?). But the Eagles, if they want it, will almost assuredly get a 1, and possibly more.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
I've just never been that impressed by him
From what I understand he’s a check down guy. He loved to feed Celek and I just don’t see him as that great of a player. Thigpen can do the same thing and has put up great numbers doing it. Kolb just isn’t that super in my opinion. A solid #2.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
He had one game against the Redskins when the Skins played a really deep cover 2, so he kept going underneath to the frustration of the fans, but he’s definitely not a “checkdown guy.” He’s more than willing to go downfield.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
Not according to his stats
Scroll down to “by pass play”
According to that he has thrown the majority of his passes behind the line of scrimmage or within 10yrds. More than half his passes.
49/187 have been longer attempts than 10yrds
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=10480
this was supposed to be in that one
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
I’m confused. “By pass attempt” (which look right to me) and “By pass play” have 2 completely different sets of numbers. What’s the difference between the two?
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
Good question
I’m confused as well. They sound the same but do have two different sets of numbers… Along the same lines, neither of them include TD’s. Wtf?
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
ESPN is retarded.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
by JimmyK on Mar 21, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
It's also only for the 2010 season
I don’t stats and how they work apparently.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
his entire body of work?
How many games? What were the stats?
Answer: Not many. Not good.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He has had 7 career NFL starts. He was absolutely fantastic in two of them (Chiefs, Falcons), as he took home NFL Offensive Player of the Week honors in both games. Let’s not minimize that accomplishment. Twice in 7 career starts he was the NFL Offensive Player of the Week. Take a second to digest that.
He was very good in two other starts (Saints, 49ers), one a loss, one a win.
He was average in one relief appearance (Redskins), and bad in one relief appearance in an impossible situation (Ravens), both losses.
He was bad in three starts (Packers, Titans, and Cowboys), 2 of those being “real losses,” one sort of a “no decision” in what was essentially an exhibition game with the Eagles’ JV team playing the Cowboys’ varsity team.
Those 4 good-to-great starts, quite simply, are enough to intrigue other teams around the league. Being a great NFL QB takes time. A few outliers aside, it’s extraordinarily rare to see QBs have immediate success at this level, and most of the greats experienced similar starts to Kolb’s – some bad outings, with a few unmistakable flashes of great QB play mixed in. It remains to be seen if Kolb can become more consistent if given the opportunity to be a franchise QB, although I believe he will.
So while your “internet scouting” isn’t completely without merit (I guess), I prefer to make judgments off of game film.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
Nobody cares about Player of the Week.
I go off what i see. And i see an average QB with an average arm who is average at just about everything- You yourself have him as a 4-3 Good to Bad ratio, which is by definition quite average.
Average is worth a 3rd round pick, not a first.
Ain't no time for hesitatin'
All you got to do is groove
by BonzosMontreaux on Mar 21, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Flacco has atleast a good arm, but i also agree that he is average.
Ain't no time for hesitatin'
All you got to do is groove
by BonzosMontreaux on Mar 21, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m not sure you’ll be satisfied with any QB the Titans bring in, I suppose. It takes time to be a great QB in the NFL. I think your expectations of what constitutes good QB play after just 7 career starts are a little unrealistic, and to not at least recognize that TWO NFL Player of the Week awards in just 7 career starts is a pretty impressive achievement is a little silly.
Best of luck with whoever the Titans bring in, especially if it is Kolb. Cheers.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
by JimmyK on Mar 21, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not that I don;t lioke Kolb
I don;t like hoim at anywhere near the price, and I don;t like him as a starting NFL QB, especially if he’s your “franchise” guy. I absolutely love Kolb as a top back up. A guy like the Cowboys have in Kitna, the Pack in Flynn, the ’Skins in Grossman, etc.
I don’t see the value in bringing him in and drafting someone. What rookie drafted in the 1st 2 rounds is going to say, “Wow, I can learn so much from this guy, he is an accomplished NFL QB”, and what locker room is going to say “this is our leader, this is our guy”….he hasn’t accomplished anything other than holding some good jock straps.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
spelling/grammatical errors abound....my apologies.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
yea
WOW
MONDAY
MUHA
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I think 7 starts is unrealistic to base an opinion of a rookie on.
But of someone in the NFL as long as Kolb? I think its adequate. Again, nobody cares about Player of the Week awards, they are absolutely meaningless. If you can show me stats that prove he is more than average than i may reconsider. What i see is a younger Kerry Collins going out there and being good some days, terrible others, and average the rest of the way. We don’t need to be using a first rounder on Kerry Collins.
Ain't no time for hesitatin'
All you got to do is groove
by BonzosMontreaux on Mar 21, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Far from sold
I was really high on Kolb going into last year, partly because of the Chiefs game, but found his play deeply disappointing. It really doesn’t seem like he’s adjusted to the speed of the NFL game yet. He wasn’t making reads quickly, which makes him uncomfortable in the pocket, and when he does get the ball out, he was almost always throwing to guys who were already open when he threw rather than guys who would be open when the ball got there.
Yes, he had a good game against the Falcons, but (1) the Falcons had inexperienced and/or mediocre safeties, so they were apparently playing very simple coverage schemes, and (2) even then, he was throwing to the open guy, rather than with anticipation. If teams were going to sit back and play simple Cover-2 all game, I’d be comfortable with Kolb, but they’re not, so I’m not.
Is this all correctable stuff? Yeah, probably, but (1) there’s no guarantee it’ll ever get corrected, and (2) Kolb isn’t a rookie but has been in the league for 4 years. VY in his 4th season was better at this stuff than Kolb was. Now, VY had a lot more game experience than Kolb has, and plenty of other issues I’ve never heard of Kolb having, but I’d rather play the draft lottery than give up a high pick or picks for Kolb.
Yes, he had a good game against the Falcons, but (1) the Falcons had inexperienced and/or mediocre safeties, so they were apparently playing very simple coverage schemes.
That’s a new one.
http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/
JimmyK you seem like a really nice guy, from what I gather from my experience dealing with you when our two teams met this year.
But I must admit I am somewhat surprised by how shocked you are that people may be skeptical of Kolb. You’re going around to other blogs discussing Kolb- and I have no problem with that, in fact I like getting a Philly fan’s point of view- but it seems like you were expecting no resistance when you came here professing what an outstanding QB he is, and that is what I find stunning.
Now regardless that you and I share vastly different opinions on Kolb, I think both of us can agree that his results are mixed. You choose to put more emphasis on his good outings and that’s fine- but to act surprised and irritated that some here choose to (a) look at his poor outings and (b) feel that his future as an NFL starting QB is nowhere near as guaranteed as you’re making it out to be is also a fair assessment.
I just don’t see what the end-game is for you here. Again, I reiterate you are more than welcome to discuss topics like this here, but to come on here and expect everyone to agree with your opinion does not seem like a wise move. You should expect at least some mild resistance. What would be the reaction if I came to BGN and told your commenters to trade for Vince Young (and there are more stats to support VY than there are Kolb)? Now clearly I wouldn’t and won’t be pulling such a move anytime soon, but I certainly would not be acting as bewildered as you are when BGNers didn’t see eye to eye with me.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How much did you watch the Falcons?
Greg Cosell, Executive Producer of NFL Matchup, mentioned it on a FantasyGuru podcast (on BlogTalkRadio, solid gold stuff for the right kind of fan), and once he twigged me onto it, it was fairly obvious just watching the Falcons. Grimes had a great year at corner, but their secondary as a whole couldn’t do much interesting. If you could block Abraham (most of the threatening part of their pass rush), you could normally find easy reads and open receivers.
by NewsToTom on Mar 21, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow
How can Pauline’s scouting report on Dalton be taken seriously? It’s two freakin sentences long. If arm strength and accuracy are all that matter to him than Mallet should absolutely be the #1 overall pick.
I live in the OC.
The one in OH.
by MattBen on Mar 21, 2011 12:09 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I said after Pauline's
review of other QB’s (Kaepernick) he lost all cred with me. Guy is a joke. That being said, Ponder and Dalton do not have crisp deep balls. It is obvious. Back up QB though? Nah….he will do fine in the NFL. I could see him being a lot like Pennington, without the injuries.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Two points
1. Pauline obviously doesn’t see his job description to include providing free content to McCormick.
2. There are necessary but not sufficient conditions to succeed as an NFL quarterback. If you don’t have them, then nothing else matters, and a good number of draft analysts/scouts, Pauline included, believe Dalton doesn’t have them.
Where's SuperHorn when you need him?! I admittedly love Andy Dalton, but I so badly want to see you two go toe to toe on this one.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm undecided on Dalton
I really, genuinely am not sure if Dalton has the right physical skills to be an above-average NFL starting quarterback. The draft analysts I pay the most attention to seem to believe he does not, so that’s where I lean, but I’m not personally invested in that opinion.
Also what is your opinion on Gabbert?
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I see both sides
Gabbert has the physical tools to be an above-average NFL starting quarterback. His arm is a plus-not like Mallett’s, but plenty good enough. He has prototypical size and height for the position.
He doesn’t move his feet well, which is a big concern because he’s been a shotgun QB. He’s not super-accurate like Bradford was. if his primary read isn’t there, he struggles to make his second and third reads. He doesn’t throw well when on the move, though what I see is more of a “reading the defense” issue than a Mallett-style mechanics disaster.
I was not mentally ready for Gabbert to declare for the draft this year. He could’ve really, really used another year in college to work on his accuracy and his reads. If he had spent his senior year at Mizzou and improved his game the way I think he’s capable of, he could’ve challenged Luck for the #1 overall spot in 2012. (Of course, he could’ve instead gotten hurt or had a mediocre year and been third round pick or worse.)
There’s a reasonable chance he busts out and is never better than mediocre, but I won’t be angry if the Titans take him at #8, but (1) I don’t think he’ll be there and (2) I will be angry if they take him at #8 and start him from Day 1 come heck or high water.
Re:
I was not mentally ready for Gabbert to declare for the draft this year. He could’ve really, really used another year in college to work on his accuracy and his reads. If he had spent his senior year at Mizzou and improved his game the way I think he’s capable of, he could’ve challenged Luck for the #1 overall spot in 2012. (Of course, he could’ve instead gotten hurt or had a mediocre year and been third round pick or worse.)
I think you’ve lost it, Tom. I mean what, really, have you seen in this kid? And, save me the deferral to the experts. You’re savvy, and informed enough to make your own opinions.
Does production mean nothing anymore? Have you looked at just how bad he compared statistically to both his peers, and his predecessor in the same system? Did you notice the year over year regression?
As I’ve said before, the kid has everything you want in a quarterback, except the ability to play the position at a high level. He was put in a system designed for inflated numbers and ended up middle of the pack in the Big 12. I genuinely believe that Kyle Boller and him have a LOT in common coming out of college…Gabbert just happened to be in a system with just enough easy reads/short passes to give his completion percentage an uptick.
*Note that this opinion is not without context. I’m a quasi-Mizzou fan (by blood), so I’ve seen a lot of the kid.
Skills
He has the raw skillset to potentially be an elite NFL quarterback. He’s a long, long way from reaching that point.
I thought Daniel was better at making reads, better at short-range accuracy, and was mostly throwing at better targets.
In watching college quarterbacks and thinking of them in terms of NFL potential, I try to look at skills and hugely discount or ignore completion percentage and other stats. They’re horribly skewed by the offense, and therefore generally uninformative.
My baseline heuristic for 1st round quarterbacks is a roughly 50% bust rate. By “reasonable chance he busts out”, I think Gabbert has a higher chance than that. My preference in taking a quarterback, though, depends on what I think his ceiling is, and I see Gabbert’s as pretty high. I though VY’s was pretty high, too (even higher than Gabbert’s, though not so great as Newton’s), and thought the Titans should’ve drafted him because I liked his ceiling (would give link, but MVN of course narfed all its archives from then).
Didn't watch Potts closely enough
I paid a decent amount of attention to Gabbert because I knew he was a reasonably high-rated recruit who was more of an NFL prototype. I didn’t think of Potts as being a similarly hyped guy and he never popped off the screen to me as a guy with NFL skills. Maybe he could be a good NFL QB, but I didn’t see it and didn’t pay enough attention to him to talk about him the way I do Gabbert.
Below, you set some sort of a baseline for QB "measureables".
Don’t you also think there should be some sort of baseline for statistics? Do production, and wins mean nothing any more? I mean, you and others, dismiss the numbers altogether because we can’t measure all of them in a controlled environment, with equal systems and personnel. That doesn’t make any sense.
I’ve always understood why a guy like Taylor Potts, Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, Graham Harrell, etc, didn’t get a look in the NFL. They were products of gimmicky systems, and the tape didn’t jive with the statistics. Put another way, despite their college production, they didn’t possess the qualities necessary to translate to the next level. So, I’m not saying that big college production = NFL success.
What I am saying is:
The absence of at least VERY GOOD college production/accolades = NFL Bust
And, I’m fine taking those statistics in context. The lazy example is Jay Cutler. I call it lazy because he’s hardly the poster boy for what you’d want at # 8 in the draft. No less, at least his lack luster statistics were due to a horrible system and players around him. He carried that team. You can see that on tape.
Well, that doesn’t show up in games or on “tape” with Gabbert. We should be discounting his numbers and making excuses why he’s not “just a system QB” like his predecessor Daniel. Instead, we’ve got to make excuses for him, and mindlessly point to the “game tape” and Mike Mayock.
It’s hogwash.
Context wins, wins lose
If I were absolute czar of the internet, I’d drop the banhammer on everybody who ever used QB wins to prove a point. It’s about as valuable to me as liking Ponder as a prospect and not liking Stanzi because Ponder has lots of urgleblap and Stanzi not only doesn’t have urgleblap but instead has barabarabana.
All other statistics must be placed in absolute context. Throws under 5-7 yards, especially bubble screens and a quick hitch are only marginally more meaningful than urgleblap. It’s timing patterns like the slant, throws against covered receivers, and finding spaces against zones that interest me. Three or five throws from one game by one quarterback may me mean to more than the 40 Taylor Potts has in another game.
Mind you, it’s not just quarterbacks where context is hugely important. I care a lot about it for linemen, too-a guy could have 3 sacks in a game and I don’t care at all, because the opponent’s right tackle sucks. I want to see him do it against a guy who’ll be more than training camp fodder. This is just my QB equivalent of that.
NewsToTom, see the below video
That JustinS posted down in the comments, and tell me that Gabbert is an NFL-caliber QB.
He has zero pocket presence and his accuracy is average…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nGYHLeB2g
Yeah, Gabbert can run and throw but playing QB is a lot more than that.
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I know it's only one game
But it is indicative of how Gabbert plays QB…
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh, highlight videos
I’ve watched Mizzou play 10-15 times with Gabbert as the starting QB. Not in full, since I tend to channel surf a lot on CFB Saturdays, but enough.
He’s currently not an NFL-caliber QB. As I wrote above, he has some serious flaws that he needs to correct before he could ever be a good NFL QB. He probably never corrects all of them. But they’re all correctable, and if he does correct them, he’s an above-average NFL starter.
So, using that logic...
IF Gabbert corrects ALL of his flaws, he translates to an above-average NFL starter.
So, if all the stars align, in your opinion, the best case scenario is an “above-average NFL starter”. How would that ever be worthy of a top 10 pick?
It's about value and yield
If Gabbert pans out, the only thing you have to do at the QB position for the next 8-10 years is pay him, and you’re a probable playoff contender unless you’re like the Texans and can’t even field an average defense. And while your chance of getting an above-average NFL starter at QB isn’t very high even with a top 10 pick, it’s a lot higher there than it is in the second or any later round.
Heck, look at the QBs drafted in the second and third rounds since Brett Favre. You have Drew Brees, then who’s the next best, Tony Banks? Brian Griese? Maybe Matt Schaub. Getting even an average-quality QB in the second or third round hardly ever happens, so don’t draft with the expectation that it will.
Don't you think it's convenient to rule out the other rounds after that?
It eliminates Brady, Orton, and Cassel, all of which are all “above average” aka Gabbert’s ceiling.
Wait a second...
All of a sudden you’re using Orton and Cassel to support your argument, yet when discussing first round QBs you decided to take out a ton of QBs (like Eli Manning for example), giving yourself a 3/14 “success rate” for first round QBs. You dismissed QBs who’ve had very good careers or even won Super Bowls, yet now you’re backing Orton and Cassel.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions
You misunderstand my point.
I’m not “backing” Orton or Cassel. If he deems Gabbert’s ceiling as only “above average”, these quarterbacks fit that bill, and could be acquired in rounds 2 or later.
Another way to put it:
If Gabbert’s max value is “above average” with all the stars aligned, you’re not getting good value by drafting him in the top 10, as that should be reserved for players that you perceive as having possible “elite” value.
Make sense?
Yes.
Though I will point out that your reasoning only works if he never breaks into elite status, but that’s not something you were talking about.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
It seemed like a good cutoff
Considering people have been talking on here about drafting Locker/Ponder/Kaepernick/whoever in the second or even third round.
The point I was trying to make by talking about the second and third round is that if you draft a QB in the top 10, you have maybe a 50% shot of getting an above-average NFL starter. If you don’t, your chance of getting an above-average starter is more like 20% or less.
I’m fine with taking a flier on a lesser prospect in the fourth round or later. But that should be just because QBs are valuable and you think this guy has a chance to be useful, and you never know, not because you think there’s a realistic chance that guy is more likely to be your future starter than a future Kevin Daft.
There's a positive correlation with top 10 QBs and a higher success rate because, as a general rule, they better prospects.
I see it as:
Good talent = Less chance of a bust
not
Higher draft pick = Less chance of a bust
I don’t think Gabbert is a good talent.
Finally someone agrees with me.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I suppose that was one long winded way of not addressing the issue directly.
Blaine Gabbert’s statistics are average with context. Without context, they are horrendous, given that he was put in a system that traditionally inflates QB numbers. Why is this not an issue?
I answered the question the best way I knew how
Alternative phrasing: 85-99% of throws made by college quarterbacks don’t give me valuable information about their pro potential, so 85-99% of their statistics are completely meaningless to me in evaluating their NFL potential, and the meaningful 1-15% of throws are lost in the noise.
Example: this year’s Holiday Bowl. Jake Locker didn’t complete a single pass in the first half. Nebraska played press-man with a couple top 3-round CBs and murdered UW’s wideouts, likely none of whom will be drafted. Peyton Manning couldn’t have completed passes to those guys, so I don’t care that Locker couldn’t.
So, we're on the same page...
If Gabbert had only thrown for 1000 yards this season on just as many attempts, it wouldn’t make a difference to you? Is that correct?
It’s a loaded question that I (hopefully) know the answer to: Of course not. That production is so low that it raises obvious red flags.
You basically contend that there is no correlation between NFL throws/skill set and collegiate success, which doesn’t make any sense. The idea that the skillset that makes one elite in the NFL won’t show up on the college gridiron is ridiculous. There are exceptions to this rule, but they are extremely rare.
People have become so gun shy of making the Andre Ware/David Klingler/Tim Couch mistake that college production is seemingly now deemed irrelevant, despite the fact that there is a strong correlation with average college production/lack of accolades, and the likelyhood of an NFL bust. The arrogance that a kid can be average in college, and be “coached up” to be successful in the NFL is astounding. It’s happened before, but not nearly enough to risk a top 10 pick.
Not completely meaningless, just mostly so
A couple ways the 85-99% of throws I don’t care about matter:
1. As I discussed elsewhere in the thread re physical minimums, there are minimum levels of performance for even the simpler throws. Meeting the minimum is what I care about, not the levels of gradation above the minimum.
2. Looking at the meaningless throws can give you some valuable information. Does he throws a catchable ball, or does he throw fastballs? Can he throw in rhythm-some quick throws are better for this than others? Does he throw the same way all the time?
Some motion hitches show up more often on different types of throws. I want to see if those show up on simpler throws, because that means they may show up on harder throws. Mallett has a tendency to arm-strength even short throws if he’s off his spot, which tells me he’s likely to do it on harder throws (and I’m pretty sure he does).
But, really, it’s skills, not numbers.
well
by that logic, Colt Brennen should be the number one QB in the NFL right now.
Get 'em.
you are NOT a beautiful or unique snowflake.
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
by danielreese05 on Mar 21, 2011 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
You have the correlation backwards.
I addressed it above:
I’ve always understood why a guy like Taylor Potts, Colt Brennan, Timmy Chang, Graham Harrell, etc, didn’t get a look in the NFL. They were products of gimmicky systems, and the tape didn’t jive with the statistics. Put another way, despite their college production, they didn’t possess the qualities necessary to translate to the next level. So, I’m not saying that big college production = NFL success.
What I am saying is:
The absence of at least VERY GOOD college production/accolades = NFL Bust
I gotcha. I'm just fading in an out
leaving a response whenever I want to stir something up. and to that last point I’d bring up Matt Ryan but his team was just absolute shit so I assume that gets him a hall pass for something like this.
but I’m enjoying the discussion. please, carry on.
Get 'em.
you are NOT a beautiful or unique snowflake.
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
by danielreese05 on Mar 21, 2011 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Context, context, context.
There’s a reason that Matt Ryan was the ACC player of the year and won the Manning and Unitas awards. Anyone who watched Ryan play versus Gabbert play can see a huge divide between the talent level of the two.
The two are different.
That's somewhat redundant to the post above.
It’s just that you and others are so caught up in specifics, that I think the importance of that college production is lost. More specifically, you’re brushing over the fact that quarterbacks with average collegiate production and/or lack of accolades have a very low incidence of success at the next level.
College production is important. It’s not everything, but there must be some level of success needed as pre-rec for projected success at the next level.
Sure
And I think Gabbert has the minimum level of college production and talent necessary for me to think of him as a legitimate serious NFL prospect, and you apparently do not.
I think projections of guys as elite quarterbacks in the NFL as reserved to guys who have already demonstrated the skills of elite quarterbacks in college. Sam Bradford is the only college QB in the past 10 years (as far back as I feel comfortable going) I would have said projected to potentially be an elite NFL QB.
Other than being tall, fast, and having an above-average arm
What else about Gabbert makes you this he has the raw skillset of an elite NFL quarterback?
I don’t think you should just ignore college statistics…if you are a good QB, then you should be able to put up good numbers. Yes, offensive schemes can skew it, but if you look at yards per attempt, TD-to-INT ratio, along with multitude of other statistics, then you should be able to compare QBs.
Gabbert hasn’t succeeded at the college level…why should he be capable of that in the NFL when defenses are more complex, defensive players are faster, and if he does get drafted by a top 10 team, then the talent around him will be subpar, at least for the first couple of years?
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I do agree with NewsToTom on one thing
I don’t think Gabbert is ready to play in the NFL now, but he may have been more ready to play after another season in college.
However, that’s a big maybe as has already been noted…
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Re:
There are necessary but not sufficient conditions to succeed as an NFL quarterback.
Care to elaborate?
Nothing too complicated
There are some absolute minimum physical characteristics without which you cannot succeed as an NFL quarterback. These definitely include, but may not be limited to, arm strength and height. There is no way Todd Reesing, no matter how much I loved him in college, was going to be a decent NFL quarterback.
Note that these are rough minimums, and you can work within them to a certain extent. Two examples, both height-related:
1. Drew Brees is a better quarterback because the Saints OL is particularly strong on the interior, which gives him better sight and throwing lanes.
2. Bruce Gradkowski struggles in the pocket, but can be reasonably effective in an offense with a lot of rollouts. Ditto, to a different extent, Jeff Garcia.
Andy Dalton is 6' 2", not 6' 0" like Brees.
And, Dalton showed plenty of arm strength at the combine and his pro day. Namely completing a 60 yard pass on the run at his Pro Day.
Height was the easiest example
Of a physical minimum, and one I could give easier examples of how you could compensate for.
I don’t much care about deep ball and range-the Boller kneeling at the 50 and throwing through the goalposts stuff is ridiculous. I care about how crisply and accurately he throws the intermediate (10-25) stuff, especially the deep out.
Re:
I don’t much care about deep ball and range-the Boller kneeling at the 50 and throwing through the goalposts stuff is ridiculous. I care about how crisply and accurately he throws the intermediate (10-25) stuff, especially the deep out.
Interesting you bring that up…
With the help of ESPN Stats & Information, let’s take a look at the two quarterbacks. We’ll start by comparing them when throwing down the field.
On throws of 15 yards or more in their respective conference games last season, Newton completed 49 percent of his passes with seven touchdowns and three interceptions. Gabbert completed 37.5 percent of his passes with four touchdowns and two interceptions.
But almost all of Gabbert's throws
Were on the money. That explains why he only completed 37.5% of passes greater than 15 yards.
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I saw
From my casual observations of Mizzou and Auburn, I suspect Gabbert threw maybe twice as many of such passes, and generally in less advantageous situations. I also thought Newton did so more frequently in better-schemed situations (see, e.g., AU’s remarkable first-drive success). I’d expect Gabbert’s numbers to be worse, and it’s no surprise to me that they are.
If I did watch all such throws (which I would if I were working for an NFL team that considered drafting these guys), I might change my mind. I won’t (and I’m not), so I very likely will not. If that makes me an inferior draftnik and you want to ignore me because of it, I’m fine with that.
I'm not pimping Newton over Gabbert.
That would be equivalent to me trying to sell you two turds, one of which is polished. I suppose one could argue that the polished turd is “better”, but you probably aren’t interested in purchasing either of them.
Impressive
This is really REALLY cool: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6158666
From Sport Science.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 12:30 PM CDT reply actions
Wow.
Safe to say his stock is going up.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I have since we first started talking draft
and still do hope we get this kid.
More (I posted on the Kaqeperninck thread):
Colin Kaepernick threw the fastest pass at the Combine (59 MPH), ran the fastest 40 time of any QB at the Combine (4.53-40), and he scored a 37 (out of 50) on the Wonderlic test, so he’s much better than Vince Young ever was. He had the strongest arm at the Manning’s passing camp last summer (out of over 300 of the top QB’s), is a 4 year starter, in 2010 leading Nevada to a 13-1 record as a senior (great leadership skills), and completed 64.9% of his passes
And:
Kaepernick playing in the pistol offense shouldn’t trouble the Titans. In the pistol the QB stands 3 to 4 yards behind the center, rather that the 7 yards deep in the shotgun, so he already has some experience dropping back while reading a defense, in addition to great reflexes. He had no trouble working under center at the Senior Bowl.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I already thought he was going to be a bad ass
Now after hearing that, Meat Thermometer is boiling over
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
by StPrattrick on Mar 21, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I kinda
hope his stock falls going forward. If not, he will go late 1st or early 2nd before we pick.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll make a judgement after I see the rest of the QBs on the show
but hitting stationary targets from 10 feet away in an empty-ish studio isn’t exactly convincing of much.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
I really don't care about that
but the stat line about Peyton Manning and showing his quick release is what impressed me.
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
What Kaepernick did at Nevada in that offense
is completely different than what Peyton Manning did in a pro-style offense against the SEC, in a time when the SEC had even better defenses than it has today, by many account. Comparing their completion percentages is absurd. I’m not trashing Kaepernick, nor completely dismissing his impressive completion percentage, just saying that the completion percentage comparison was laughably naive.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
I just said I was impressed
Not that Kaepernick is a better QB than Pey Pey or he is even close to the same level as Manning. That’s all. Cool your jets Turbo.
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
see my reply below for why that shouldn't be terribly impressive.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
Pretty much this
I don’t know why anyone bothers comparing physical stats to Payton Manning. It’s not his arm or technique that make him great, it’s everything going on in between the ears. No one has a mind for the game like Manning, so unless you(proverbial) are comparing your QB to Payton on the basis of football IQ, work ethic, and leadership, GTFO
The Official Pretend Mock GM for the 2011 Music City Miracle Titans.
Go Titans!
Crazy, I didn't know PEyton changed the spelling of his name... ?
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
put it this way:
Peyton’s highest completion percentage at UT was 64.2%.
Last season alone 30 FBS QBs (with a qualifying number of attempts) had a completion percentage of 64.2% or higher… including Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Gregg Maclroy and Ryan Mallett.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
So what your saying is
They will all be better QB’s than Pey Pey. Got it!
By the Hammer of Thor (Munchak)!!!!
for our sake
I hope they are….’cause we are gettin one!
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I really want to see how his release time stacks up against the other QBs.
Because it sure seemed they thought that his release time was outstanding.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
It did look great
it looked a lot more compact and he started with the ball higher (which is a good thing) than I saw in the youtube videos of this past season. He had a long wind-up in college (think Tebow-ish, but not CK’s wasn’t quite that long/slow), so you can tell that he’s been working with a good QB coach since the season ended. If he can make that automatic he’ll help himself a lot.
Music City Miracles blogger and High Secretary of Funk. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
I just hope
he helps himself just enough to be there when we take a QB haha
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't get too worried about it. There will be enough QBs left in the second round that if we go that route we'll have some choice.
Ponder- Looking more and more like he’ll go late first round.
Locker- I’ve seen him all over the board, from 12 to 25 to a second rounder.
Dalton- We love him here but I’ve seen reports saying that he’s a big project and some teams won’t give him higher than a third round grade.
Kaepernick- Rising but still not a first rounder in my mind. That accuracy and the fact he comes from a pistol O is worrisome.
You could throw Stanzi into the mix also. I think there’s a good chance we’ve got 3-4 QBs left to choose from.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry, see below post, meant to reply to your post
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
True
but if there is a run on QB’s in the late 1st/early 2nd, you think we will take whoever is there? Probably, knowing there won;t be one in the 3rd. IMO, I want them in this order:
Kaepernick
Dalton
Locker
Ponder
If Gabbert was there when we pick in the 7th, I still dont want him. Cam, doubt we would take him at 8 if he were available, and there’s no way he will be there in round 2. Stanzi, no thanks. And of course if Tyrod Taylor is there in 5-7 I say grab him.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 2:09 PM CDT reply actions
I have a hard time believing there will be a run on quarterbacks
that leaves us without one to pick in the 3rd (out of Kaepernick, Dalton, Locker, Ponder). And if it does happen, that leaves a whole lot of talent up for grabs at other positions.
The Official Pretend Mock GM for the 2011 Music City Miracle Titans.
Go Titans!
i´m all for waiting until the 3rd
i´m not sold on any of them, so a 3rd would be ok to sort of gamble on a project qb.
My preferred order:
Gabbert at 8 > Ponder > Dalton > Kaepernick > Stanzi (all in the second- though if Munchak’s got balls of steel he could gamble that one of Dalton, Kaepernick and Stanzi will be available in the third.)
I wouldn’t be too worried about a “run.” Gabbert, Newton, Locker and Mallett all probably find a team in the first round. Even if Ponder were to go late first, that still leaves us a few options at 39.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Gabbert….NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Ponder-don’t like his long balls, bad arm
Dalton-like him…when I watch him I think of Pennington in his healthy days
CK-Man crush on the kid, want him in 2-tone blue
Stanzi-all hype for reasons I cannot comprehend…maybe the name? “Ricky Stanzi” sounds cool…kinda
Gabbert-overrated and has done much of anything in areas where he should have led the nation
Newton-intriguing….on someone else’s coin
Locker-I think he will grow into a good QB, over time
Mallet-boom or bust. I could see him being a fantastic QB, or a Ryan Leaf replica…too much risk for a team like ours that is loaded with young talent and not too far away form being competetive
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
It won't surprise me if Gabbert busts big time in Carolina or Buffalo,
but he will have a tremendous chance at success in Tennessee.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Why do you think that?
I think our talent base is much higher-quality on offense than either of those places…but does that alone mean Gabbert would be better here than there?
Good evening. I'm Ron Burgundy, and here's what's happening in your world tonight.
by ronburgundy7427 on Mar 21, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
In my mind, yes.
This offense has shown that it can be functional and occasionally outstanding with: a) a dumb, lazy QB and b) an old, inaccurate QB.
I think any QB we pick has a better chance to succeed here than in a place like Buffalo, that doesn’t have as many offensive pieces as us. With that in mind, if we take Gabbert I don’t see why we’re so certain he’s going to be a bust. I love his intangibles- his attitude, work ethic and demeanor are outstanding. Combine that with his skill set: strong arm, good mobility, average accuracy (though personally I think its better than average), excellent intelligence and I’m salivating over what he can do in this offense.
Think of what Vince Young did. Now look at Gabbert. Everything between the ears is completely different.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Did he not come out and say that he would be using lots of stuff from Dinger?
Its pretty clear we’re not heading to a West Coast O anytime soon, and I’m fairly positive we’ll be sticking with a similar style offense.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm just saying that we don't really know until we see it on the field.
It’s difficult to project any of these QBs in our system, because we haven’t seen it.
And, as mentioned before, most offensive systems these days are some sort of blend, so while Palmer may not be a direct WCO disciple, that doesn’t mean that he can’t also design an offense around a QB that’s precise on short/intermediate throws.
I have severe doubts he can design any offense let alone one that plays to the QB we draft
But I still maintain we’ll see more of the same from 2010. Sure a few tweaks here or there, but a Dinger offense at its roots.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
If I had to make an educated guess, I'd agree.
Just saying that it’s tough to project any of these guys onto “our offense” because none of us definitively know what that is.
Agreed
I’ve watched some tape and I think he has promise. Definitely needs time to sit and learn though. Good project.
Kaepernick is my least favorite of all. I really hope we don’t take him.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
Kaep's got some strong points about him but he, like any other second round QB is going to be a major developmental prospect.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Along with development
I just don’t really see him as a QB. He looks too fragile. He also has that dumb looking goatee that annoys me.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
Gabbert
is coming from the same type of offense that we crucify people propsects for. The same as VY did. Kaepernick’s offense was more “pro-style” than Gabbert’s. Can someone tell me why Gabbert is such a highly rated QB? Hois stat line is not that great, especially for the type of offense he ran. The competition he played against was not very good, and he was surrounded with decent talent compared to the competition.
I look at Dalton who took a TCU program on his back (with help, but wothout him TCU is trash), Kaepernick who took a Nevada program to a 13-1 record and beat a top 5 Boise State team (1st time in Nevada history the beat a top 10 team), I look at Mallet who took Arkansas the past several years to great heights (I don’t like Mallet, either), Tyrod Taylor, who is responsible for WVU having the wins they had, Newton-obviously surrounded with talent but was a great 1 year story…
I mean where is the merit that makes Gabbert “the best QB in this draft class”? I really don’t know and would like to be enlightened. I am serious…not being a smartass. The guy, to me, underachieved in a system that is tailored for overachievers.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
pardon the Duslin in the 1st sentence above.
It should read, “…is coming from the same type of offense that we crucify prospects for.”
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Things to love about Gabbert: (from my above reply to ron)
Intangibles: Hard worker, solid attitude and professionalsim (from what I’ve seen and heard).
Skill Set: Good arm, mobile, good accuracy, exceptional intelligence.
Plus the scouts I trust the most feel he’s a solid QB.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
OK
I understand your points, and since I don’t know jack squat about the kid, I cannot contest. But if the intangibles and skill set are so good, why did it not translate to the filed? THAT is why I’m not buying what they’re selling.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I personally think we're concentrating solely on the bad stats, or the categories where he doesn't measure up.
Let me give you an example. Mike Mayock, who I probably trust more than others here, loves Gabbert. When asked about the accuracy issues he gave an example that I will try my best to paraphrase here. He looked at the film from one of Gabbert’s worst games- one in which he went 12/30. He said that almost every throw was a really good ball. Either the ball was going to be completed to his receiver or it would be incomplete- but the location was good because there was very little chance to intercept his passes. So when you or I look at that stat line and go “Wow that’s horrendously bad” (and don’t get me wrong, it absolutely is), there is sometimes more to the story.
In Reinfeldt We Trust
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Mar 21, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Gabbert went 12-for-30
And “almost” every throw was a good ball…did his receivers just drop 10+ balls that game?
I’m sorry, a 12-for-30 showing is pretty horrible, unless every single one of his throws was 20+ yards down the field. I doubt that in Mizzou’s offense…
I’m not saying Gabbert is horrendously bad, but that he’s just mediocre. So, I just don’t see how a big, fast, above-average arm that was mediocre in college will all of a sudden do amazing in NFL. That just perplexes me…this is Kyle Boller all over again.
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Balls
In my mind those are either completed or dropped. “In the area” balls means he is no better than me, my sister, or my mom.
But I see what you are saying.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
You're really having grammatical issues today, aren't you?
You should look up Gabbert on Youtube and watch some film. Half the film I’ve seen is his O-line collapsing and him doing what he can to save a play. I haven’t seen a ton of film but from what I have seen he really could of used a better line.
But you should look up some video. I need to look up some more as well… I have gained more faith in him after seeing some.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
I've watched the film on him
And, Gabbert scrambles out of the pocket more than his O-line collapses…the more I see of Gabbert, the more I see of Kyle Boller. Boller would do the same thing…the moment a defender gets within 2 yards of him, he would tuck the ball and start scrambling.
Gabbert is a very good athlete…but he’s not a good QB.
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
This video of Boller's time as a Ram
Is what I think Gabbert will be as an NFL QB. This play by Boller reminded me of a lot of plays I have seen from Gabbert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=637nGGzi2Tc&feature=player_detailpage#t=180s
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
But Kyle Boller also suffered a bad line as a Ram
if your pocket is consistently collapsing, it’s hard to have any faith in staying in that "pocket.’
His pocket presence will need work, but with a better line he should be more willing to stay in there. He doesn’t seem to “tuck and run” all to often, from what I’ve seen. He does scramble to the outside but often gets the ball off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nGYHLeB2g
I just got done watching this one. His line is rushed by 3 guys the entire game but still often crumbles. Gabbert trys hard the entire game and doesn’t have a stellar game, but his receivers don’t exactly help either. Not too mention the coverage.
I think he’s got the talent to make it. He just needs a good line and a little time to sit and learn.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
Is Carolina's line right now better than St. Louis' was then?
Gabbert’s probably going to be running for his life anywhere he goes assuming that it’s in the top 5.
Get 'em.
you are NOT a beautiful or unique snowflake.
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
by danielreese05 on Mar 21, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok, less than 20 seconds into the link you posted
And, boom, Gabbert starts running around despite having a nice clean pocket…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nGYHLeB2g&feature=player_detailpage#t=20s
I’m not saying he does this all the time, but when a QB does it a lot, then it’s a big red flag (decision-making, accuracy, and pocket presence are the big 3 “skills” that I think all NFL QBs should have).
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
And, at 0:48
First read gone, so I’m going to start running around (note, this was against Illinois defense that was not that great).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nGYHLeB2g&feature=player_detailpage#t=48s
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
2:23, pocket did not collapse and he still scrambles (again)
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
4:04, he almost scrambles but finds an outlet receiver
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
5:19, just step up into the pocket already!!!
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I got tired of watching that film
I know that film is only of one game, but every time I have seen Gabbert actually play QB, he has absolutely zero pocket presence…a la Kyle Boller.
Watch film of Mallett, Dalton, Ponder, and even Stanzi…they rarely take off like that and they step up into the pocket and make the throw even when a defender is barreling down on them. That’s playing QB at an NFL-level!
by shawneriksmith on Mar 21, 2011 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
He didn't take off that many times
You’ve got your mind set in this one so I’m done.
Burned out. No point in banging my head against a wall.
Cam Newton for Pres.
Cecil Newton for VP
QB film is boring
especially Pocket QB film
Check out my Youtube Channel Icecru2
yeah, i want some views...
tell me how it is!
by Ice0ne (CAJ) on Mar 21, 2011 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
wicked bad
I’m going to change my name to “Duslin1.1”
You are right…I need to see the guy play. If he does indeed run for his life, than shitty stats are expected.
Bawz Hawgin' from H-town to 'Toga Town
by MarkusInSaratoga on Mar 21, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
only thing
that bothers me about CK is that id have to look at his name on our jersey all the time
EAPN? yea that was me
what?
Check out my Youtube Channel Icecru2
yeah, i want some views...
tell me how it is!
by Ice0ne (CAJ) on Mar 21, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
kapernick
jus wouldnt seem right on a titans jersey
EAPN? yea that was me
People are hating on Dalton because they're racist (?) against gingers?
I like it. I believe that we should evaluate QBs based on their games started, completion percentage, and wonderlic scores—not the color of their hair.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Mar 21, 2011 8:26 PM CDT reply actions
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