Is Jim Washburn A Good Reason to Draft Jason Pierre-Paul?
by Jimmy on Apr 19, 2010 11:01 AM CDT
in Tennessee Titans News
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PrintMike Keith was on 104.5 The Zone this morning talking about how the Titans are not scared to take a guy like Jason Pierre-Paul because they have Jim Washburn who is the best defensive line coach in the NFL. While I agree that Washburn is one of the better defensive line coaches in the game, I am not sure just having him is a reason to take a project like JPP.
Do I think Wash can make Pierre-Paul a good player? Yes, but I don't think it will happen in 2010. That is the problem with this philosophy. The Titans need a player to step in and make an impact from day 1, not a guy that is going to possibly be a stud in 2-3 years. That brings me back to my question about Washburn. Is he that good?
People always point to all of the defensive line projects that the Titans have brought in and Wash has turned them into studs. Who are they? Don't come with Kyle Vanden Bosch. KVB had been injured his entire career until he came here. The reasons for the jump in his production were he finally go healthy and he was teamed with a motivated Albert Haynesworth.
That segways nicely into a discussion on Fat Albert. Sure he became arguably the most dominant player in the game, but it took 5 years. Go look at his stats. He had 9.5 sacks in his first 5 years and 14.5 in his two contract years.
Antwan Odom? He racked up an astounding 4.5 sacks in his first 3 years before having 8 in his contract year.
Last year they brought in Jovan Haye who had actually had some production early in his career. Washburn was supposed to bring him back to dominance. The result? Non-factor.
There are also the cases of Randy Starks and Mookie Johnson who were no good here but have moved on to have success at other places.
The two cases that work in Washburn's favor are Travis LaBoy and Tony Brown, but do two cases really make him worthy of spending #16 on a guy that has never proven anything? The guy they take has to make an impact next year if this team is going to be any better than 8-8 in 2010.
So what do you think? Is there something I am missing here? Again, I am not saying that Wash isn't a very good D line coach, but I don't think his track record proves that he can turn a guy into a stud in one offseason.
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I think people confuse him with Munchak
Munchak could make me a good OL
I’m an early bird and a night owl. So I’m wise and I have worms.
that's how good of an OL coach he is!
I’m an early bird and a night owl. So I’m wise and I have worms.
by DonFrancisco on Apr 19, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Somebody already made the point
That the more the “experts” (and I use the term very loosely) talk about how the Titans should or are going to take JPP, the better I sleep at night, because the FO bucks trends, and we just can’t take the guy that everybody expects.
Kidding aside, I agree with your points, JImmy- I don’t care how good your D line coach is, he is not going to make JPP an impact right now, which is what we desperately need.
Go ahead and read this and this and get SCIENCE’D about JPP.
Nope...
There is no good reason to draft JPP.
I think Washburn's a good coach, but that doesn't mean we should draft JPP
The thing about Washburn is that he gets at least something out of most of the defensive linemen. Jacob Ford was a 6th rounder and we get a fair bit of edge rush out of him. Now, I don’t think Washburn is as good as Munchak, as DonFrancisco said above, because Munchak takes 4th rounders and makes them Pro Bowlers. The same can’t be said for Washburn. Hopefully we pass on JPP because even if Washburn is that good, just because a guy runs fast doesn’t mean he can produce. See: anyone the Raiders draft.
"I don't care if I have to run 100 times or pass it 100 times, ... Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me." - VY
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Apr 19, 2010 11:30 AM CDT reply actions
what if JPP did become some gun slingin stud on the field?
then maybe the national media will pick up on it and turn it in to a big story enough so that sandra bullock will play his mom in a movie.
i really don’t understand why many mocks have the titans taking JPP over the likes of kyle wilson or even derrick morgan.
Maybe.
But, who cares? You draft these kinds of projects in the later rounds, not in the first. The risk reward is out of whack. You don’t draft guys in the first round that you plan on “coaching up”, when you can get players like William Hayes and Jacob Ford in rounds 6 and 4, respectively.
The better question to ask is, if Jim Washburn can turn any D-lineman into an all pro, why would we waste a first round pick on one in the first place?
Because he's not that good...
with all due respect to Mr. Washburn.
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Completely agree.
This is the kind of logic that gets lost on the FO, unfortunately.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
Wash=technique, not results
From what I’ve read, around the league Titans defensive linemen have a reputation of being very sound technically and also improving technically. I’m an extraordinarily poor judge of player technique, but this does seem like a fairly reasonable observation. Even when they’ve been a poor run-stopping team they’ve been very gap sound on the DL aside from some Colts-like DE overpursuit (though that seems to have decreased lately). Note, however, that technique doesn’t always translate into results-Randy Starks’ good technique doesn’t necessarily prevent him from getting shoved 5 yards.
The logic thus is that somebody like JPP will benefit more than somebody like Graham because he’ll improve more technically. Technique + natural talent is the most devastating combo there is in the NFL. Per John Thornton, Wash also has very firm ideas of what constitutes proper technique, so you lose out on the benefits of something like Graham’s previous technical improvement.
Munchak has also had his share of failed projects and busts. The difference is, you don’t play your 4th best guard but you do play your 4th best defensive end. They don’t sign Jake Scott to a big money deal if they can trust Daniel Loper to play right guard; Leroy Harris has barely played in his first 4 seasons; etc.
I agree with this
I’ll also add that while I’m not sold on JPP, Mayock loves the motor and I’ll cede to his expertise. Motor+athleticism+balance= a pretty good starting point. If JPP can be passable vs. the rush then I think he could actually be a solid pick.
The one thing I think JPP has going for him re:production is he appears to have superior agility, balance, and fitness among the DE crop. The fitness level was a big piece of KVB’s performance… it’s a lot easier to have a high motor if you’re not winded. JPP looks bad on tape when he gets tired and his poor fundamentals get egregiously bad; by becoming more efficient with technique and effort he can really improve his game. So I do think that in this player’s specific circumstance, Washburn’s reputation as a technique guy is valuable. I’m warming to JPP; he’s not yet a football player, but he does have the ideal measurables and agility you want.
"he does have the ideal measurables and agility you want"
Like Chris Henry?
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
No
Henry had measurables (40 time, size), but his agility (quickness, feet, balance, cutting) was horrible. And vision really did him in. JPP is very smooth, looks flexible.
So his flexibility is what is going to make him successful?
Is that the only difference between him and Chris Henry?
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
No
Lack of agility and vision did Chris Henry in.
JPP’s issues will be technique, strength against the run, and motivation after he gets paid. But athletically, he is nearly flawless for a DE.
Henry was a guy who could jump high, bench a lot, and run fast in a straight line. JPP is a guy who moves just about as well as anybody his size who has played his position and his frame can handle more weight. In other words, JPP is functionally athletic and Henry is not. Doesn’t mean he’ll produce, but they’re not all that comparable.
Functionally athletic?
Look, you can rationalize this all you want with the garbage that is thrown around the combine (fluid hips, quick feet, etc.), but the reality is that JPP and Chris Henry present the exact same types of risks and red flags.
They are underclassmen and freak athletes that have chosen to leave college early before the cat gets out of the bag that – gasp – they can’t produce.
The guys that are athletic and unproductive are supposed to slip past the first few rounds. But, in recent years, front office’s are becoming more and more arrogant. Trading sacks for 40 times. Tackles for wingspan. Using buzzwords words like ‘freak’ and ‘raw’. Mortgaging a teams future based on the idea that they can ‘fix’ or coach up a guy. It’s like the hot chick that, despite all their friend’s advice, continues to date guys that drive yellow Corvette’s and wear Ed Hardy shirts, because she knows she can change him. This one will be different. Right?
As if something were wrong with yellow corvettes.
Yeesh.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
little red corvette
REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!!!
by SouthTexasTitan on Apr 19, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Compare to Dunlap
Dunlap has the same measurables as JPP but bends at the waist instead of the knees, is stiff in the hips making cuts, and looks like much less of a versatile athlete.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d816dd2e1/2010-Combine-workout-Carlos-Dunlap
Watch JPP:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d816dce92/2010-Combine-workout-Jason-Pierre-Paul
Yes, this is a workout in shorts. But the difference in agility between the two is huge.
But Dunlap has performed at the highest level in the most athletic college conference in the nation
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
ONE of the most athletic
/don’tfeellikearguingwithSuperHorn
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
The Titans tend to take players with a lot of potential
But which produces mixed results. On opposite ends of the spectrum are CJ and Chris Henry. Personally I’d rather go with production over potential but the Titans’ front office doesen’t usually go that way.
"I don't care if I have to run 100 times or pass it 100 times, ... Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me." - VY
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Apr 19, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
CJ was the complete opposite of Chris Henry and Pierre-Paul before the draft.
He had the college production. The only thing he didn’t have was the size.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
So you're saying that size is not that important?
That’s not what she said last night :-)
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Many seemed to think CJ was just a fast runner rather than a RB
Even if the production was there, all I remember from that draft is analysts and scouts talking about how he is a fast straight line runner and if that would be able to translate over to the football field or not.
"I don't care if I have to run 100 times or pass it 100 times, ... Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me." - VY
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Apr 19, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
So, the draft analysts said that CJ's talents would not translate to the NFL after he had a great college career
But Pierre-Paul’s measurables but no college career mean his talents will translate?
These guys talk out of both sides of their mouths. We have to go with a "safer"* pick here.
*there is no such thing as a safe pick.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
McCoy and Berry also seem like they would be safe picks
REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!!!
by SouthTexasTitan on Apr 19, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh I absolutely agree that we should not take JPP
And I also don’t think that his talents will translate, I probably should have made myself clearer. Actually, I agree with everything you just said. We do need a “safer” choice (Come on down, Derrick Morgan).
"I don't care if I have to run 100 times or pass it 100 times, ... Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me." - VY
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Apr 19, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
That's because people are idiots.
CJ had MAD production in college. Granted, it was in a smaller college division, but still… he DOMINATED at the college level. Contrast that with C. Henry, who had marginal production but a larger frame.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
CJ and Chris Henry are totally different in terms of production.
Final college years:
Chris Henry: 165 att 581 yards 3.5 ypc 7 TDSs
CJ: 236 att 1423 yards 6.0 ypc 17 TDs
Yes, CJ played in a dumpy conference, but he did have production. Chris Henry played in a better (marginally) conference and had horrible production.
Pierre-Paul is the worse of both worlds. Bad production in an awful conference. And he’s only played one year of quasi-D-1 football. Lose. Lose. Lose.
Matter of fact
Someone find me the name of an NFL player who has been even marginally successful having as little of a college career as Pierre-Paul or Chris Henry. In the last 25 years.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
Doesn't matter.
Ther’s going to be a much better pick for us @ #16 than JPP.
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
There is always a much better pick available when the Titans pick
That doesn’t mean we will take it
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
That reminds me...
will we have a thread for draft day?
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
yo Gramsey
do they have a draft twitter or something that will be updated during the draft
REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!!!
by SouthTexasTitan on Apr 19, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Who is they?
I am guessing that Big Tuna will keep tweetin’ about the draft.
Are you not gonna be on the live thread?///
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
i have to work -__________-
training…
REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!!!
by SouthTexasTitan on Apr 19, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
SouthTexasTitans
Yes. There will be a thread (probably more than 1), and all updates will go on Twitter. Follow us @titansmcm
Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.
"What if I was Peyton Manning?"- CJ to the ref after they picked up a personal foul flag for a late hit on him.
THANK YOU!
idk why i didnt look for this before
REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!!!
by SouthTexasTitan on Apr 19, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Lol unfortunately I have to agree with you on this one
"I don't care if I have to run 100 times or pass it 100 times, ... Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me." - VY
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Apr 19, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Antonio Gates.
No college football to speak of but all the measurables in the world, and that basketball experience turned out to translate pretty well.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
Excellent recall
Matt Cassel—a 7th round draft pick after not starting a single game in college
Antonio Gates—signed as an undrafted free agent
So there has been some success, but still not enough to get me excited about using a 1st round pick on one.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
1st round picks
I’ll have to sit down and think about those. Offhand:
1. Eric Swann never attended college but had a reasonably long and productive career at DT after being taken in the top 10.
2. Antonio Cromartie only played 2 seasons at FSU, starting 1 game, missed his entire junior season with injury, then was taken 19th overall.
Eric Swann only played a semi-professional football
So that is a huge jump that I would have not been on board with.
But Cromartie, in his two years of college, still had more production than Pierre-Paul has.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
Lots of guys have gone JC to NFL
FWIW, JPP played well at the JC level. Should we dismiss all the small school guys, too? TO, Jerry Rice, DRC, all the A&M Kingsville guys come to mind.
Willie Parker too.
by WC22 on Apr 19, 2010 1:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
"small school" is not the same as junior college
Cortland Finnegan and Joe Flacco played at the same level as TO and Jerry Rice.
So I am not dismissing all the 1AA or even D2. Only junior college.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
Ugh.
The point to take home here is that the exception(s) proves the rule. Generally, elite athletes play at the elite levels, barring exceptions like late physical development or a sport change.
It’s also worth noting that DRC is the only example that carries any weight here as (a) Jerry Rice was uber productive, even at a small school he was 8th in the Heisman voting and (b) Willie Parker and TO were both drafted 3rd round or later. If we were talking about JPP in the 3rd round or later, I’d be all about it.
I think this is like the Bill Walsh concept
If a player was successful in high school, and successful in college, then he’s more likely to be successful professionally.
"I don't care if I have to run 100 times or pass it 100 times, ... Whatever it takes to win is all that matters to me." - VY
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Apr 19, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Closest I can think of is Kelley Washington.
And I had to look him up on Wikipedia to remember what happened to him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelley_Washington
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
And even though I hate his ass
He was an All-American in college. And cost Phillip Fulmer his job. Thereby directly causing the pitiful state of University of Tennessee football.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
So if Haden & Morgan are both available...
which one would you take?
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
C'mon man...
you know Berry will be gone.
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
How the Hell did K. Washington cost Fulmer his job.
Fulmer lost his job because he let his team turn into an undisciplined bunch of thugs and criminals.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
Who was the first undisciplined diva
that Fulmer failed to rein in?
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
I'm gonna go off the board and say... Travis Henry.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
Should be a ?
As in, “How does a guy playing well for one year equate to Fulmer losing his job five years later?”
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
He started a downward trend
Fulmer failed to control Washington, which led other players to think “as long as I play good, he doesn’t care what I do” which led to Fulmer completely losing control.
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
I don't see how you can blame that on anyone but Fulmer.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
Oh, I blame Fulmer too
But I still hate Washington’s ass
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
He was 3rd round. Just the closest approximation I could find to a guy...
…who didn’t do a lot in college but was drafted high and then was relatively successful in the pros. Only, he wasn’t actually drafted as high as the draftniks had him projected. I suppose he’s been moderately successful in that he’s still gainfully employed in the NFL.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
He was an All-American in college D
I would argue that he was more successful in college than the NFL
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
His paychecks would probably disagree with you.
But I certainly take your meaning. There’s no argument that he exceeded his potential or anything.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
Oh, he definitely got paid more in the NFL
It’s not like he played for Alabama in college!
Or basketball for Kentucky!
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
Why is everybody (experts) so high on JPP!!!
The kid’s got bust written all over him. We need to hope Haden falls to us, some how.
by nightmancometh' on Apr 19, 2010 12:18 PM CDT reply actions
I would still take Morgan before Haden.
But I agree with SuperHorn…you don’t use a 1st round draft choice on a "project ".
by titansfan4ever on Apr 19, 2010 12:20 PM CDT reply actions
I would love to see Morgan get drafted by the Titans.
But I would be a bit more optimistic about JPP than most of you seem to be. He may be raw but he produced all throughout his college career in JC and at USF. He dominated one of the better O-lines in the nation against FSU (I painfully watched the whole thing) and his stats weren’t great at the end of the year but he did have 16.5 TFL (I believe that’s the number.) The main thing I like about him on film is his motor. This guy doesn’t give up. It is impossible to predict if his motor will fade away once he gets paid so I will assume he gives that same effort in the NFL. He is a quiet, reserved kid who doesn’t exactly search for the spotlight which tells me he really loves the game of football. He has not been playing a long time which is a legitimate concern. However, with his motor and a bit of technique, I believe he can contribute right away. Maybe not 11 sacks but he will contribute.
so many things in this comment are just simply not true
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
For starters:
He dominated one of the better O-lines in the nation against FSU
Let’s start with the “dominated” part: 4 tackles inc. 1 sack. Great.
And find me a non-FSU fan who thinks Florida State had one of the “better O-lines in the nation”
Official MCM Hater!
Adrian Peterson just fumbled again.
Ok, maybe he didn't completely dominate but it was absolutely a coming out party for him.
And anyone with a mind for football could see that the reason FSU was so bad last year had nothing to do with the offense (before the injury to Ponder). Rodney Hudson is a sure thing 1st rounder next year and the following year Andrew Datko is a likely 1st rounder. FSU without a doubt has an awesome O-line.
Negative.
Take away your FSU bias. They aren’t one of the best in the nation.
Ain't no time for hesitatin'
All you got to do is groove
by BonzosMontreaux on Apr 20, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Football Outsiders has all you need to know...
about why the Titans should not draft JPP (I don’t believe for a moment that they will).
Check out this knowledge.
If I hit a hole-in-one on this grand slam the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
Amazing read.
I am now doubly convinced that the Titans are gonna “pull the trigger” on JPP.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
We're so screwed.
I’m gonna watch the draft from a position of safety underneath my bed.
DannoE
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
Storyteller's Playbook
Charter Member of the Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame
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