Titans 2010 O-Line = Titans 2009 D-Line?
by hal41605 on Oct 5, 2010 12:04 PM CDT
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PrintThere has been much discussion about what is wrong with the Titans’ offense through 4 weeks. Yesterday, Jimmy brought up the troubles they are having with the offensive line and creating running lanes for Chris Johnson. Unfortunately, talking about the run game is only scratching the surface of what is going wrong with this unit, which has consistently been one of the best in the league since hitting back-to-back homeruns in the 2005 draft with Michael Roos and David Stewart.
However, through 4 games the is truth unavoidable: Plain and simple, the Tennessee Titans’ O-line has been one of the worst in the league. Statsification after the jump..
>In the running game, anyone who has paid attention to Jimmy’s weekly Runningback Success Rate piece knows the story. Loaded box, no holes, CJ runs into a wall. Rinse, repeat. 28% of Titans’ rushes result in CJ being tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage, and just from watching I would have guessed higher than that. This has led to a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of clamoring for the Titans to open it up and throw the ball all over the field. Sounds simple enough, but when you look a little deeper, another glaring problem with the O-line appears, one I am simply stunned by: They have been even worse at pass blocking.
Last year, Titans’ QBs dropped back to pass roughly 491 times, and surrendered 15 sacks, giving them a sack rate of 3%. This year, Titans' QB's have already been sacked 9 times in just a quarter of a season. Through 4 games and 78 pass plays, Vince alone has been sacked 7 times, or almost 9% of the time when he drops back to pass. Only David Garrard, Michael Vick, and the bloody pulp formerly known as Jay Cutler have been sacked more often than VY so far this year. For what it's worth, things were almost just as bad during Kerry Collins' short time on the field w/ a 7.6% sack rate. I knew things were bad, but I had no idea how truly, statistically awful the Titan’s O-line has been this season.
In one off season, this O-line has gone from elite to bottom feeders, just like the D-Line in 2009, except without the departure of a $100 million man to explain it all away. When Football Outsiders posts its Week 4 stats update, the Titans and Bears will likely be the only teams whose offensive lines rank around the bottom of both the running and the passing rankings, which is to say, the only two offensive lines that aren't good at anything.
The sack rate hasn’t been this high for an entire season in Nashville EVER, not even during the horrors of 2003-2004. Open it up you say? So far, the offensive line seems to be the biggest reason why the coaching staff might be so hesitant to do so—even with limited passing, Vince is on pace for 30ish sacks this year in a run-first, run-second offense. To put that into some truly horrible perspective, the only QB season I can find with a similar mix of high sacks and low attempts on par with what Vince is on pace for this year is Jamarcus Russell last season w/ 33 sacks on ~280 drop backs. Big ouch, and that is not in any way a shot at Vince.
If the line can’t keep VY clean when he’s only throwing around 17 passes per game, I shudder to consider what it would be like if he were seeing more attempts. I wanted to get a rough estimate, and the answer is very ugly: Last season, the 10 most sacked QBs in the league averaged 554 drop backs to pass. At the Titans’ current sack rate, 554 drop backs would lead to a whopping 50 sacks for the season, a total shared by co-league sack leaders last year Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger. Yeah, it really is THAT bad.
So how did we get here? Is Kevin Mawae really the O-line’s Albert Haynesworth? I know it sounds ridiculous, but hardly anything else has changed. There was no coaching change, and it’s not like they are starting some rookie or bum off the street in Mawae’s old spot. All of these guys know each other and have played with each other for a couple years now in at least some quantity. If Mawae really was so crucial, how could a staff that is consistently great at judging O-line talent have blown it so badly by letting him retire? Moreover, how could Mawae have been so valuable, and yet not a single team took a chance on him? Honestly, I don’t have any answers. But I do know this: the Titans will live or die this season based on Mike Munchak’s ability to fix this mess immediately, both in the running game and the passing game.
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I think it is Mawae
or our o line might be out of sync, question is who steps up, Roos?
by SouthTexasTitan on Oct 5, 2010 12:16 PM CDT reply actions
Awesome job
Hal, on putting all these stats together in a sensible narrative. Pretty neat, I think. Really cuts through spin and insider this&that to get at a picture of what is actually so.
"I am going to be 'Bo' regardless.’’
I do wonder
How many sacks are a result of blitzing LBs or creeping DBs that are loading the box anyway in an attempt to stop CJ? Not entirely the OL’s fault then. However, Sarge is a monster blocker and Stevens ain’t bad. That leaves willing but unable little CJ, marginal Scaife, or WR Cooke as most culpable.
However, I am not disputing the OL’s putridness at all, and your assessment here only reiterates how dire the situation really is. I will be curious to see FO’s report too.
blitzes have definitely been a problem
which makes the “we miss mawae bad” theory a lot more plausible because he adjusted all the pre-snap blocking assignments.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on Oct 5, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Best explanation
It’s not the physical skills, it’s the knowledge. Something that is probably often vastly underestimated by both fans and coaches.
And add to an offensive line that isn’t adjusting a quarterback that either isn’t able or isn’t allowed to audible and you have: Poo.
I'm not a Vince Young fanboy. I'm a Vince Young athletic supporter. No, wait.
NFL PA
I also thought it strange that Mawae did not get picked up after a Pro Bowl season. The Conspiracy theorist in me thinks it has something to do with the fact that he is the president of the NFL PLayers Association and the labor contract is coming to an end. Management conspired against Mawae and thus he did not (to my knowledge) even work out for a team.
by nineyards on Oct 5, 2010 12:28 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
yeah i left that out
cuz it doesn’t make too much sense to me.
Mawae is still NFLPA President. if anything, blackballing him only accomplishes 2 things: first, to both enrage and motivate him like nothing else could have, and second, give him all the free time in the world to stir up trouble for them among the players.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
I can't get no...
STATIS-FACTION!
Going from Mawae to Amano is a bigger drop-off than anticipated. Scott has been blown away by D-Linemen several times this year. I enjoy watching the O- and D-Line play through binocs during the game. Well, I enjoyed it last year. This year, I don’t know whether it is miscommunication during blitz pickup, as groovymountain proposes, or perhaps the pre-snap assignments as hal says.
CJ is going to have some negative runs; that comes with his style of running. But 28%? Wow. The Broncos’ defensive plan is going to be adopted by every opponent the Titans face. Blitz hard from the outside and force CJ between the tackles and into traffic for the DL and ILB to clean up.
Those OLB blitzes have to leave the quick slant open for the slot receiver or TE. Seems like a 5-7 yard curl route would eat this blitz up as well.
Maybe run a few misdirection runs? Maybe more screen passes? CJ is deadly if he can get the rock in open space. Titans need to get it figured out quick or this could go downhill fast.
In Washburn We Trust.
Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit
yep
maybe allow VY to audible out of the -1 yard rushing play and into a slant, streak, etc…or audible CJ to the slot and see what happens…bet the D backs off……
by MarkusInSaratoga on Oct 5, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Mawae was really great.
But I seem to remember playing fine when he was out with injury, etc.
Jake Scott has been a huge bust this year, after playing well up until now. Every time I turn around, he’s getting bullied by a tackle, or blown by by a blitzer. Amano hasn’t been much more impressive.
But if anyone can fix these guys, it’s Munchak. I know there’s a lot of coach hate here, but I don’t think there’s any doubt that he’s one of the best there is.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 12:53 PM CDT reply actions
Great article
I didn’t realise our O-line has been so bad.
Obviously the alarm bells started ringing when it seemed CJ was getting stuffed for no gain 80% of the time. Hopefully whatever is going wrong can be overcome with adjustments before we get too far into the season. Hopefully.
I said it once and I am going to say it again.
Here is my take:
They have an 8-9 man front on most occasions. 5 offensive linemen , and one full back does not equal 8-9, let alone 7. TEs do come into question, but there will, more than likely, be one or two guys that aren’t blocked at the linebacker position.
Now hear me say this… I am NOT defending the O-Line. You guys are right about Amano, but Jake Scott has been just as bad. He is a, what my O-Line coach back in the day would like to call, a "pussy-blocker", meaning he position blocks. The two most physical linemen we have are Stewart and Harris. Harris has struggled, but had a great block along with Roos yesterday on Ringer’s run. Stewart struggled vs the Giants but he has been the only one that has been steady.
We do have problems, but just keep in mind that we are outnumbers more times than not.
Coaching has got to change their philosophy, and I will be the first to say I am a Fisher supporter. However, 2 games outta 4 now, he simply has been OUTCOACHED.
Get it together.
That’s all.
teams loaded the box last year too though
what has changed to cause such a massive decline?
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
I was saying this in the pre-season and it was ignored....
the O-line problems should have been apparent to the coach’s since then, and if they haven’t gotten it fixed yet…they probably haven’t figured it out….they must have seen it…it was glaring!! So i think we are in for a long season…
You weren't ignored
Lots of folks here were sweating the oline.
I'm not a Vince Young fanboy. I'm a Vince Young athletic supporter. No, wait.
and we're fans
everybody ignores us ;-)
I'm not a Vince Young fanboy. I'm a Vince Young athletic supporter. No, wait.
While i agree that our o-line has had awful run blocking so far..
We can’t ignore the fact that our secondary has been getting torched so far. Despite the pressure from our D-Line we are giving up loads of passing yards to average QBs so far. I shudder to think what Manning and Schaub will do to us late this season if this continues.
Ain't no time for hesitatin'
All you got to do is groove
You're overcomplicating the sacks
Sacks tend to be on the quarterback much more than they’re on the offensive line. The Colts’ continued presence at the top of the pass-protecting lines despite generally average or (much) worse personnel is strong evidence of this.
One thing VY really improved during his benching (i.e., between 07 and the second half of 09) is he stopped taking sacks and started getting the ball out. This year, he’s now gone back to his old form. Both second half sacks against the Steelers and both sacks against the Broncos are on VY for holding the ball, not the offensive line. Offhand, I don’t remember the other sacks well enough to categorize them one way or the other.
I don’t regard Collins’ numbers from this year as meaningful enough to be worth considering separately, and the rushing struggles are a different issue.
when you do the game charting
are you seeing more players in the box than last year?
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
Don't keep track of that
Number of players in the box isn’t something FO charting keep track of.
I’m going to write a post about What The Heck Is Going On With The Titans’ Running Game, but likely won’t have/make time for that until the end of next week. Preliminary thoughts: guys in the box, teams concentrating on setting the edge and preventing CJ from running outside, and a lot of just teams playing good, gap-sound fundamental football.
This is an interesting way to look at it.
And certainly valid, on some level. The O-line can only protect for so long.
For Vince, it needs to be about quick decisions. I like that he can pull the ball down and run with it when a play breaks down, but he hasn’t been doing so much of that as he has been holding the ball trying to find some breathing room, and taking a sack, when the play breaks down.
If he can run, fantastic. Run. Make a play. But if not, getting rid of the ball is not a bad thing.
Again, this is when he has ample time to make a throw and hangs onto the ball. No doubt, there are some times when the offensive line just breaks down in protecting him.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
The fact that he doesn't often get to throw might contribute to his attempts to make something happen.
If you know that you will likely only get one chance ever set of downs, you’re less likely to throw it away.
Not getting to throw much isn't a good excuse to make bad decisions.
Plus, he had 28 attempts in the last game.
I’m not saying he’s playing poorly. I think Vince is playing wonderful football this year. I’m just saying that there may be something to the fact that the sacks aren’t ALL on the O-line’s shoulders.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Stop now
Stop now it’s not worth it. VY is never to blame. first it’s he doesn’t have the play makers around, him.. then it was Bad WR’s. the excuse is now Bad O-line. soon enough the excues will end and the VY will then be fairly critized here
Who needs excuses when you've got statistics?
He’s a top 10 per play quarterback as measured by completion %, and TD %. He’s borderline top 10 in INT %, Y/A, and rating. Really, the only statistic that suffers is sack %.
He's
he’s a top ten QB because of how he is used.
Nobody has been a harsher critic of VY in the past than me.
At the end of last year and so far this year, when he has been given the chance to pass, he’s done a great job. The stats prove that out.
Plus, the whole reason I posted was to agree that VY has to shoulder some of the blame for his sacks. So I don’t know why your panties are in a wad.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah youre right
vince young is the least criticized player in the league. what a joke. all i ever see in the media is article’s praising vince young. go into the tennessean comments and its just vince young supporter after vince young supporter. its like its impossibile to criticize the man.
Yes and no
Sacks are on the QB when the route is a quick-hitting pass (3 or 5-step drop) and the QB holds on to the ball. When it’s a 7-step drop (like a lot of Titans pass plays are), then the O-line needs to give the QB time to get rid of the ball.
And, one of those sacks in the Steelers game was more on CJ for not even getting a piece of Harrison coming on a blitz. VY had no time on that pass play.
Without knowing the exact play called, it is difficult to pinpoint a sack on the QB or O-line/RB. But, the Titans don’t typically have a lot of quick throws in their gameplan. They like to try to hit the big play against a blitzing defense, instead of throwing screens or quick slants.
by shawneriksmith on Oct 5, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, one of those was on CJ
Others weren’t-VY clearly stopped throwing with anticipation in the PIT game, which meant he started eating the ball.
My mental pass pressure metric-how often does the QB have to make an unplanned quick decision? It didn’t happen once against the Broncos, and I think only two throws were affected by pressure, an incomplete dumpoff for CJ on a delayed corner blitz and the incomplete for Washington late in the first half when the Broncos blitzed and he couldn’t step into the throw. Other than that, he had a pretty clean pocket and time to survey the field.
O-line regression
We can say all we want about the changes on the O-line from last year, but Scott, Amano, and even Roos have not played well after being stalwarts for a couple of years. The reasons for the poor play seem to me more like the poor play of Hope and Griffin last year. Let’s hope they fix it.
I'm so happy that hal wrote a piece for the site!
But I has a sad because that means a whole year until we see the next one :-(
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager. Follow me @AugustWest_MCM.
by August West on Oct 5, 2010 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Awesome.
Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.
"What if I was Peyton Manning?"- CJ to the ref after they picked up a personal foul flag for a late hit on him.
Anyone else disappointed in Roos?
He was stellar last year, but I think his play has tapered off.
"You of all people should not be criticizing Chuck Cecil."
"I’ll criticize whoever I like, thank you. Especially emotionally unstable coaches like Chuck Cecil. Thanks for your opinion. You can stop trolling now." -BBS.
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Oct 5, 2010 2:39 PM CDT reply actions
Way to carry the fight to that jackass over there
It’s funny that no one he has banned can rec the comment. I’m sure he knows that though……
Are you banned yet?
Official MCM Hater!
"If anyone asks you, you fixed my television. Now go!"
No, I think he forgot about my comments because the Colts game started.
He didn’t like that I pointed out similarities between our “emotionally unstable” coach and his demeaning and profanity-laced rants.
"You of all people should not be criticizing Chuck Cecil."
"I’ll criticize whoever I like, thank you. Especially emotionally unstable coaches like Chuck Cecil. Thanks for your opinion. You can stop trolling now." -BBS.
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Oct 5, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow I didn't realize it got ten recs. That's great!
I especially like this reply to one of my comments by a clearly well educated Colts fan:
Who gives a shit about Winnipeg? Winnipeg could not even keep a NHL team.
Apparently relevancy to an argument is not his strong suit. But I guess this is the kind of commenters BBS is trying to attract.
"You of all people should not be criticizing Chuck Cecil."
"I’ll criticize whoever I like, thank you. Especially emotionally unstable coaches like Chuck Cecil. Thanks for your opinion. You can stop trolling now." -BBS.
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Oct 5, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
It would have 11
BUT I’M BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNED!
Official MCM Hater!
"If anyone asks you, you fixed my television. Now go!"
Haha well I appreciate the faux 11th rec.
Its only a matter of time before he bans me too.
"You of all people should not be criticizing Chuck Cecil."
"I’ll criticize whoever I like, thank you. Especially emotionally unstable coaches like Chuck Cecil. Thanks for your opinion. You can stop trolling now." -BBS.
by WinnipegTitanFan13 on Oct 5, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
This is what I'm thinking
This problem is two fold!
2 of the 4 teams we have played run the 3-4 causing the inflated numbers.
Reason 1.
Mawea isn’t there to make the line adjustment and call out where the 4 and 5 rusher is coming from.
Reason 2.
Young hasn’t figured out the 3-4 D either and can’t make the quick read or choice fast enough to take off.
in a 3-4 it’s easier to hide where the blitz is coming from and or the 4th rusher is coming from.
Bad NEWS.. We face another 3-4 this week in Dallas. They like the Steelers, Broncos have Athletic LB’s and will be causing problems all day
Check your stats.
Young doesn’t have against a 3-4. He has trouble against the Steelers in Week 2 and the San Diego Chargers. There are plenty of other 3-4s out there that Vince has done well against.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Typo
The first sentence should read “Young doesn’t have trouble against…”
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Has he done well against a 3-4
post mawae?
I'm not a Vince Young fanboy. I'm a Vince Young athletic supporter. No, wait.
Well, since we're 4 games into the Post-Mawae era..
I’d say the jury is still out. That would say more about Mawae than VY, though.
"Do the Titans have a miracle left in them in what has been a magical season to this point? If they do, they need it now. Christie kicks it high and short. Gonna be fielded by Lorenzo Neal at the 25; he dishes it back to Wycheck; he throws it across the field to Dyson. 30, 40, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 5, endzone...touchdown, Titans! There are no flags on the field! It's a miracle! Tennessee has pulled a miracle! A miracle for the Titans!"
by TennesseeTyrants on Oct 5, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok
Am I the only one who watched the game? the missed quick hits? VY should have gone for 300 plus yards because of the extra men blitzing. If he read that quick enough it will go for big gains and slow the blitz down.
It’s not just him. it’s the line not make the adjustment and yes. his stats look good because how he reads the defense. or doesn’t read them.
Most QB’s in this league change protection as well.
Great now we know the o line sucks
Questions is what can this team do to fix it before we plunge into a losing record?
simple
More film study in order to know where the “extra” man/men are coming from in the 3-4.
Rather that be from an O-lineman or the QB. I perfer the QB because he see’s more
the steelers game had a lot to do w it!
Take out the steelers game and then look. The oline looked pretty good vs the giants, who just had 10 sacks against chicago. U can’t judge on 3 games. They r lookin ok in pass protection
by UTDEEZY08 on Oct 5, 2010 6:57 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Feel the cold thrust
If you guys hadn’t been jellydicking around during training camp, you might have been baptized in the white light of my prophecy, and together with one voice we could have cried out for justice on this matter before it was too late. Not that anyone in charge should would care about the cry of a bunch of nerds like us. But still. Think of all the self-satisfied looks we could have exchanged. And now, with Jake Scott rounding nicely into the Nick Harper role and Roos going Griff ’09 on us, the wages of FisherFeldt sins come due. If ever there was a lesson in hanging on my every word: you really blew it.
Also, put me down for a 2 top at the Mawae Gets the Last Laugh Café. Hopefully Jeff Fisher will soon be arrested by these gentlemen.
"I am going to be 'Bo' regardless.’’
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