Clearing The Air: My Take On Michael Vick And The NFL
by August West on May 22, 2009 9:58 AM CDT
in Commentary
105 comments
So I took some shots at recently released Mike Vick in the morning links and judging from the early returns not many folk appreciated it. Since this issue isn't going away and it's one I can't keep my mouth shut about moving forward, here is a detailed explanation of what I meant this morning and my take on Mike Vick possibly returning to the NFL:
Preface) I'm a dog guy. I have been for a long time. I have an English Pointer named Ophelia, and my fiancée has brought with her an amazing Black Lab named Bandi. I haven't been in a fight in probably 12 years, but I would protect my dogs violently if needed because they're in my care. They would do the same for me, I have no doubt. Also, what follows are my views, and not necessarily the views of anyone else at MCM.
1) Vick didn't just kill a dog that needed to be put down, he funded and hosted a criminal enterprise that profited from gambling and the torture/execution/maiming of dogs that were his responsibility.
2) Yes, rapists and those guilty of manslaughter (or other heinous crimes against people) sometimes serve shorter sentences. I believe those people should serve longer sentences, not be used in arguments to reduce the sentences of others.
3) It's a disgrace that Leonard Little is allowed in the NFL. It's a disgrace that there are a lot of guys to whom Paul Tagliabue should have given massive suspensions, or even expulsions. This is a different day and age, however, and the mistakes of the past should not lead to mistakes in the future.
4) I believe in redemption. I believe in second chances, but second chances and mulligans are not the same thing. Vick's second chance is the opportunity to live a free and non-criminal, not to get his highly coveted and highly lucrative job back. If the Enron guys had lived long enough to serve their terms, I can guarantee you wouldn't see them on the board of another Fortune 500 company.
5) Teams have the ability to sign who they want. I'm not infringing on that or saying that the Commish should give Vick a lifetime ban; it's merely my contention that signing Vick is an unconscionable, indefensible move on a moral level.
6) My beef with Dungy's Sport Illustrated essay is that Dungy is an impressive man who can really help a lot of people from making bad mistakes. Instead, he's letting himself get used by Vick and Co. (in my opinion) in the disgraced QB's bid to get back into the NFL. Dungy did stop short of outright endorsing Vick's return to the league, but Dungy had to know his essay would be spun in a way that helps Vick get back. Dungy had no prior familiarity with Vick; all we know is that he met with an inmate who said he was very sorry and wanted to turn his life around on the outside. Shocking. That's a reckless endorsement in my book.
7) Pretty much nothing is going to stop me from being a Titans fan. I'd even root for the team if they signed Vick, but I would be extremely disgusted and antagonistic about it. I'm sure that has the Titans front office shaking in their boots, but it's the best I got.
So there we have it. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and certainly not on a guttural, emotional level. That's all subjective and part of what makes each one of us different. I'm just trying to make my position clear so you folks know I'm not some PETA nutjob. If you want to debate the logic, well that's what the comments section is for... that and fart jokes. Ok, mostly fart jokes, but still.
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i left my thoughts in the morning links comments
and pretty much i agree with everything on here beside #7. but i just wanted to say that #2 and #3 hit the nail on the head. it’s so effing tiring to hear those arguments
so ray lewis was an accessory to murder and got away with it. that means we need to lower our standards of conduct on everyone else in the league? logic fails completely.
my point about dropping the titans holds though. not only would it be morally reprehensible and a pr nightmare, but it would be a dumbass move from a football standpoint too. i could never wish vick fame and success, thus i could never cheer for the team he plays for.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Can I have your tickets if they sign him?
All joking aside, I am really gald that we don’t have to worry about that. There is no way the Titans would consider bringing him in.
Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.
by Jimmy on May 22, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we got in from day 1, so i have no idea about how it is now
but what is the waiting like for season tix? anybody tried to get some recently?
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been on the waiting list
since 2000.
Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.
by Jimmy on May 22, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got offered PSL's
a couple weeks ago. been on the list for 3 years. no money :(
by joshuaboone on May 22, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
this whole time I thought you were a Vick apologist… Ha Ha
by Big Bad Bulluck on May 22, 2009 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hypothetical questions
If Vick will be returning as a WR, would you still be against his return to the NFL?
If Vick was convicted of a less heinous crime, let say theft, would you still be against his return?
Go Titans!
by Pinoy Titan on May 22, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yes… I don’t care if he’s returning as a place kicker.
no… the brutality of the crime and the fact that it happened for years are what send this over the top. Not all crimes are equal.
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post August.
I really questioned Dungy’s choice to join the Vick camp and it really made me question the respect I had for him. The very first thing that crossed my mind was “I can’t believe Dungy is gonna let Vick use him like that.”
I am glad to see I wasn’t the only one.
Official MCM Hater!
Summer 2009 Troll Call: Bedazzlers(2), Ratbirds, Squeelers
by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 10:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t want to be the guy to use Dungy like that. If he’s allowed to play again and something else shady or criminal comes out about Vick, I would feel awful for Dungy. Hes putting his good name and character on the line for someone else, and I would hope that Vick respects and cherishes that.
now with less meyton panning.
by Pride of the Southland on May 22, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm of two minds on the subject.
I believe Vick should be able to get another shot, if he’s truly reformed.
On the other hand, I don’t want to have to root for him and don’t want him on my team.
Does that make any sense?
by hartley on May 22, 2009 10:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What is the point of prisons?
The simple facts are this:
Mike Vick has already had most of what he knows for a life to have been completely destroyed.
He is NOT a danger to society right now.
It is MORE likely that he endangers society if we don’t allow him back and give him a chance at redemption.
I love dogs. I watch The Dog Whisperer a lot and thought DogTown (dealing with Vick’s dogs) was terribly sad. I wanted to shoot the man myself when I saw those dogs.
But you have to put personal feelings aside and think on a grander scale in these cases… and RECIDIVISM IS THE RESULT OF OUR CURRENT SYSTEM!!!
And it’s for good reason that these people fail time-after-time and it’s because we encourage that. That makes no sense and even on a large scale like this where we all hate the man, our greater judgement and compassion must prevail.
Now, at the same time, it is perfectly reasonable to believe he should be allowed every chance by the system and the NFL and NOT believe that your team should be the one that signs him, though they be allowed. Actually, I believe that is the ideal situation.
What is the result of that? Mike Vick would still have every chance and could only feel that he truly was the one that destroyed his career. If the system or the NFL (Roger Goodell) itself doesn’t allow Vick to play though? Well, it’s a travesty where the man can realistically feel that he wasn’t even truly given a real chance to get his life “back on track” and he almost certainly will only have the original criminal element-types that helped steeer him wrong before to still be with him. It’s very often the case in this world and it’s not even good for us and the world we live in. Basically, we help create and encourage a lot of the problems we have in this world.
Yes, even Mike Vick should be allowed a Legitimate Second Chance.
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 11:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and besides...
He was in prison. He served his time.
If you have fault with the prison system and believe he didn’t serve enough time than that’s fine… but that’s another issue.
If a man serves his time then we should try our best to give him a “clean slate” when he gets out. Again, if we don’t actually try and do this then we are only making the problems with recidivism even worse and guaranteeing that these guys never really fit back into society, as they’ll never feel like they even have a chance to.
Like it or not, he did serve his time.
…now let’s let the individual teams decide if he’s worth the risk and should be signed.
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"he is not a danger to society now"
purely uninformed speculation. violence towards animals has a high correlation with later violence toward people. violence towards animals during a person’s youth is one of the biggest indicators for diagnosing psychopathic personality disorder. our prison system isn’t going to fix any of that.
he should be allowed to get out of prison, go get an hourly wage job as a night security guard, stay out of trouble, work his ass off like a lower middle class nobody for the next 50 years and then retire. that is his second chance. not a second chance at being a 100millionaire, not a second chance at fame and celebrity and idol worship. a second chance at life and freedom just like everybody else. most people never get a first chance and anything remotely similar to what vick had in his first chance.
there is absolutely nothing in our criminal justice code that says you get to resume life right where you left it once you get out of prison. 12 states permanently revoke the voting rights of convicted felons. most jobs don’t have “prison leave” as a paid benefit.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not uninformed speculation
He has such an eye on him that it is only reasonable to assume that, while this is so, he is a pretty safe member of society.
Yes, he certainly could be a danger… but it’s only reasonable to assume that the safer play from our society is to let him try to adjust back in rather than cast him out and encourage future criminal activity from him.
And to think he’d be able to resume his life right where he left off is just pretty absurd, IMO.
He will NEVER be able to be the same Mike Vick that he was.
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not a reasonable assumption
as you pointed out, our prison system is lousy when it comes to rehabilitation. over 60% of violent criminals incarcerated between 83-94 were back in prison less than 3 years after their release. violent behavior, especially of the particularly cruel and repeated nature like vick’s, doesn’t just go away. he took pleasure in killing living things with his bare hands. you gonna invite him over for dinner now that the federal pen is done with him?
he does deserve a chance to rebuild a new life, absolutely. i would buy a double cheeseburger from him in a heartbeat as a showing of my unwavering support for his second chance. i’d even look up the city bus schedule for him. what can i say, i’m just that kinda guy.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Michael Vick shouldn’t be allowed to return to the NFL because he would earn a lot of money for it? You’re suggesting that freed felons should be allowed to return to the workforce, provided that their employment is of the non-lucrative variety? It sure sounds like that’s what you’re saying.
Let’s not throw logic and reason out the window just because dogs are involved. So felons can’t vote in some states – tell me, does this really have a significant impact on their life? (See this economics paper on the value of voting – http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.php?lesson=EM576&page=teacher) I’m ok with the government taking away the right to vote from felons, but now you want the government to say that a felon can’t be a millionaire? Explicitly stripping felons of the right to work at a place of employment totally unrelated to their crime(s) is just something that can not fit into a criminal code that is based on reasoned judgment as ours is. Please justify what you’re saying with some sound logic, not just the demagoguery that has been posted ad infinitum
by jeanl0uis on May 22, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't say anything about the government saying Vick couldn't play.
Playing in the NFL is a privilege, not a right.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who authors the criminal justice code?
You’re right, he doesn’t state it explicitly, but it sure seems like that’s where he’s going with it. Why else would he bring up such an example? His argument is about punitive measures taken against felons, and in our society that is largely controlled by the criminal justice code/government.
by jeanl0uis on May 22, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right
And I think he shares the same viewpoint that I do—-society is not set up for felons to just resume their “pre-felon” life right away like nothing ever happened.
And I don’t think the NFL should, either.
But, we are all entitled to our opinions. It just sucks that Vick can do what he did knowing someone will always give him a chance and he is gonna laugh all the way to the bank.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand where you're coming from
The despicable things he did to dogs combined with the generous salary he may continue to earn will definitely strike a nerve with many people. Still, I believe in the letter of the law and I think what makes our society great is that it is built on a foundation of justice and reason, not emotional appeals and knee-jerk reactions.
by jeanl0uis on May 22, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion is not based on what he did
I don’t see any difference in him and anyone else that has been convicted of a felony.
That should be a deal breaker for the NFL, that is all I am saying. Felony, yes? NFL, no.
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Summer 2009 Troll Call: Bedazzlers(2), Ratbirds, Squeelers, Fightinredwarners
by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Let the man be free and live a normal life now that he has served his time, but not in the NFL. Not because he shouldn’t be “allowed” to according to the government, but because he shouldn’t be allowed to according to the NFL. There are many places of employment that inquire about potential employees’ criminal records and won’t hire felons. It is a simple truth. Why should a felon of any variety, not just the animal abusing kind, be allowed to stand in the spotlight and be a role model when he could live a perfectly normal life earning his keep like most of us?
If he goes back to the NFL like nothing ever happened he is just one more example of why our criminal code only pertains to the non famous and poor people of the country. How many crimes have we seen star athletes commit that would have landed a normal person in jail only to see them get a slap on the wrist? If he steps back into the spotlight it will just be a bright shining example that athleticism and popularity excuses criminal activity and that is a damn shame.
by Titan in WV on May 25, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree... sorta
I agree that all these ex-cons should not be allowed to play in the NFL. However, the fact of the matter is that they do. Maybe the commish should suspend him for a year. That would make me feel a bit better after everything he did with Pacman.
However, ex-cons do play in the NFL and singling Vick out is unfair. He’s already spent time in jail and lost tons of money. He’s lost more money off of this then I will probably make in my lifetime.
If he can still play NFL QB then he will get the opportunity because the NFL is a business. I don’t 100% agree with it, but I’m not going to rant against a system that I spend so much time rooting for. I try to avoid Hypocrisy whenever I can.
by theologic on May 22, 2009 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why do we even let ex-cons out then?
If prison isn’t where they “serve their debt to society” and then we’re going to believe that when they’re out they still should be treated like outcasts and unequal to those that are not ex-cons (and not given “fair chances”) then why let them out at all if we still feel that they should be punished and serve a further debt?
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you go to jail...
should you get a slot in the NFL when your time is served? By your words all of us non athletes are outcasts. I don’t anyone here is saying to make him an outcast, just let him live a normal life out of the spotlight. He is supposed to be going to work as a construction worker, that is great. I wouldn’t even mind if the company I work for hired him and stuck him in an office next to mine as long as he was qualified for the job. He has served his time, he should be entitled to an oridary life as a free man. He should not however be entitled to a privelaged life of luxury and fame. If he is qualified for and lands a job in the private sector earning millions, great I am happy for him. But don’t stand him up and make a role model out of him. He had his time in the spot light, he tossed it out the window along with a lot of the respect most people had for him. Serving his time does not entitle him to the respect and fame he lost, it entitles him to be free, get a job, and work like the rest of us normal people.
by Titan in WV on May 25, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every application I have filled out for employment has asked me if I was ever convicted of a felony.
Why is the NFL different?
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 11:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Do they also tell you that it won't disqualify you from the job?
Mos times, whether it’s true or not, they are also legally liable to tell you that they aren’t supposed to disqualify you from the job because you served such a debt.
I believe your point is actually bad for the NFL inasmuch as the NFL seems to have adopted an idea that they’re are bound to further punish people above and beyond the legal systems (which is actually questionable from a legal-standpoint).
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nothing the league does is questionable at all from a legal standpoint.
private company, they can hire and fire for being a felon just like any other business. people get fired for DUI’s all the time.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Wisconsin Fair Employment Act
Look up The Wisconsin Fair Employment Act as just one example which tells us this isn’t absolutely true, my friend, when it comes to hiring, or not hiring, ex-cons.
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's on
in the southwest airlines supreme court case in the 70 about hiring only hotties in short shorts as flight attendants the supreme court ruled that the only grounds upon which you may exclude someone in the hiring process is due to lack of a “bonafide occupational quality”. the nfl could easily make the argument, and win, that part of being a pro-athlete, a kind of entertainer, is being appealing enough as a person and performer to attract fans and their money. that’s why the nfl can refuse him, but mcdonalds or a garbage collection service can’t.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The man is Ivy League
ladies and gentleman!
Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.
by Jimmy on May 22, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um... yeah.
I woulda went with their contracts and the the bargaining into the “conduct policy” or whatever. Yes, especially with the NFL being entertainment-oriented, there are reasons that they can try to preclude Vick from a job… but your first statement implied that the legal system never protects people that have been imprisoned.
That is quite simply not true.
Again, your original statement was:
“private company, they can hire and fire for being a felon just like any other company”
You can make new arguments… but that statement there was not quite true at all.
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you commit a felony
while you are employed, you can be fired, and nothing says you have to be rehired after your prison sentence. i don’t know about wisconsin labor laws, but at my last job 2 different guys were fired over run ins with the law that occurred off the job over the weekend. they aren’t getting their jobs back. they can go work somewhere else, but once you are terminated for cause, you’re done at that particular employer.
12 states don’t let felons vote again. there are sex offender registries all over the country that stick with someone for life. universities make no bones about factoring criminal record into admissions, even after you “did your time”. simply “serving your debt to society” does not mean the slate is wiped clean afterward and you get to start your life over from where it got off track.
The Dual Threat, Official Enforcer/Stat Geek of MCM.
by hal41605 on May 23, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!
If Vick weren’t a star in the NFL his treatment would be much different (read: worse) than it is. Being a felon in this country isn’t easy – and NO, I have not had actual experience with this. Why do people think that Vick deserves anything?
He has his freedom. That is his reward for paying his “debt to society.” Anything else is gravy.
Great post, August.
"I throw, you catch. It's NOT that hard!"
Peyton Manning, SNL, 2007
by peytonsthebest on May 22, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
My take on this is a lot like how I feel about the Vols signing Daniel Hood. I can’t really decide if I think either of them deserve the second chance, but I know I am glad that I won’t have to cheer for either.
Titans Blogger at Music City Miracles even though gramsey hates it.
by Jimmy on May 22, 2009 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's a business
and if he’s cleared to play and some team thinks he’s worth the money, then they should be allowed to sign him. If it turns out he starts to break the law again, then tough luck for the team that signed him (a la the Cowboys and Pacman). Just because you dislike him or are outraged at what he did, that doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t be allowed to apply for a job that he’s qualified for.
Oh, and I agree with most of your original post except item #4, hal. Plenty of bigshots who screwed up still go on to collect fat paychecks elsewhere. Hell, look at all the people from the Bush administration who undoubtedly broke the law. How many of them are being held to account for what they did?
by DoofusOfErasmus on May 22, 2009 12:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and that, my friends,
is why politics is the dirtiest job around.
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did his time.....
… now he is out. At least he actually DID time instead of getting off scot free. (I’m looking your way Ray Ray).
Point is there isn’t any need in us caring one way or the other. The NFL will do what it wants. If that means employing felons (they already do!) then they will and us griping won’t do a darn thing to change it.
I am a dog guy as well. I think of my Jake as my own son. Especially when he brings back the birds on those cold mornings soaking wet! However, killing a dog is not killing a person. It’s time we started weighing the value of human life appropriately.
PEOPLE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN DOGS!
A WOMAN’S SEXUAL PURITY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN A DOG’S LIFE
A WOMAN’S RIGHT NOT TO HAVE THE CRAP BEATEN OUT OF HER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN A DOG’S LIFE
I don’t like Vick but what I am saying is we can’t continue to publicly crucify him and let everyone else have a pass……..
The PAIN TRAIN is comin baby!
by BigW on May 22, 2009 12:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If Vick had done to people what he did to even one of those dogs
he’d be on death row. Yes people are more important than dogs, but that doesn’t give him a free pass, I think most of us would say that a rapist or murderer would get hit twice as hard. People just lash out more when it comes to dogs because dogs can’t speak for themselves or their kind.
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Props
IT IS JUST A DOG!!!!!! IF it is such a huge deal then Brett Favre or any other Cow Farmer should never play in the NFL again they have those poor defensless little cows who cant speak for themselves killed so we can have supper. They cut their throats and electirc prod them, do we ever hear this come up, no because that would be insane just like this topic. THIS IS FREAKIN RETARDED!!!!!!!!! Can we talk some football?
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We know he was convicted of a FELONY, right?
Why does that not count for anything?
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Summer 2009 Troll Call: Bedazzlers(2), Ratbirds, Squeelers
by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and a felony gambling charge
that’s going to count worse against him with Goodell than the dog fighting, I promise you.
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is strange
Stories about James Harrison+Stories about Michael Vick and we get this:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/sports/stories/2009/05/22/steelers_dog_attack.html
What a shame. What is the love affair with pit bulls?
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 12:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In the right siuation
with the right owner, pits are exceptional dogs… vicious breeds are kind of like guns: some people, who know how to raise, train and house them, can handle them . A lot of people who can’t try (and they’re the ones who cause the problems).
That being said, I wouldn’t raise a kid around a Pit, Rotty, Doberman, Chow, Ridgeback, etc. That’s just my choice.
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off-Topic: On Chows.
True, chows do not get along well with children. Really, they don’t get along well with anybody other than their first owners.
But it’s okay if you have a kid, and then get a Chow puppy. They’ll include the child as part of their pack, and be okay with them. In that case, you only have to worry about other people’s kids, they still won’t like them very much. (I know this from first-hand experience growing up with a Chow)
Trying to get an adult chow when you already have a kid (adopting an adult chow is difficult under any circumstances, this breed tends to imprint on a single family to the exclusion of any others, an adopted Chow is going to be disagreeable at the best of times), or having an adult Chow and then having a child are entirely different situations. In these cases, it can be very dangerous.
by hartley on May 22, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats sad to hear.
Pits are really nice and caring dogs. Its all about how they are raised. I don’t know if maybe Harrison raised the dog to be more aggressive, or maybe his kid was teasing or taunting the dog, its really not my place to speculate, because in any way this is a sad thing to hear.
I can’t believe they had to add in the blurb about him intentionally missing the white house visit.
now with less meyton panning.
by Pride of the Southland on May 22, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good question for Michael Griffin
he breeds them and I believe enters them in shows… I know he had a pit he was very close to pass away while he was away for a game this year (Cinncy I think?).
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right. I remember that.
Official MCM Hater!
Summer 2009 Troll Call: Bedazzlers(2), Ratbirds, Squeelers, Fightinredwarners
by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
August, Your Using A Double Standard
So you think Vick is a Dick for the way he treated dogs?
To be consistent with a PETA point of view, shouldn’t you disapprove how chickens are raised on chicken farms? How cows are slaughtered?
A death is a death no matter for what purpose is it not?
by pigskinpundits.com on May 22, 2009 1:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
from the last paragraph:
I’m just trying to make my position clear so you folks know I’m not some PETA nutjob
And no, all deaths are not equal in the world. Animals raised for food are a lot different on a moral plane than animals raised and bred over centuries to be obedient companions. There’s a reason these dogs generally submit to the instructions given to them even when they’re dangerous: it’s a behavioral trait they’ve been conditioned to understand.
Music City Miracles blogger and official Jon Bovi tour manager.
by August West on May 22, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All animal deaths are equal. Your arguing with your emotions
Come on Spock, use logic!
by pigskinpundits.com on May 22, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no they aren't, IMO
If that’s your opinion then that’s fine, but it’s not mine and I’m not alone in that view by any stretch.
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by August West on May 22, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Food vs Entertainment
You yourself are using twisted logic. An animal who dies to be a source of food had a purpose that sustained life in others while an animal who died as a source of entertainment had no meaningful purpose.
A couple has sex to get pregnant and have children as opposed to a man who forces himself on a woman for his own entertainment. Sex is sex right?
A man shoots another in self defence to save his family as opposed to a man who shoots another just for entertainment? Shooting is shooting right?
No those statments are complete nonsense and would make really stupid examples. Just like saying an animal who dies to be food is the same as an animal who dies because some whack job thinks it’s entertaining to watch him die.
Above and beyond just letting the dogs kill each other for entertainment… he killed the ones that didn’t perform well himself in violent ways. Turn the tables. How would he like to come into the locker room one day to be faced with drowning, electruction, or being beat to death because he threw one too many interceptions. Death may be the same, but by no means are all deaths equal.
by Titan in WV on May 25, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MICHAEL VICK HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF A FELONY
One example, please, of a player in the NFL AFTER he has been convicted of a felony.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I mean, felons can't vote.
But we are OK with them having the ability to make eleventy billion dollars and being worshipped like an idol?
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gramsey, he did the time for his crime.
by pigskinpundits.com on May 22, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again:
a second chance at freedom and a clean slate are two VERY different things.
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by August West on May 22, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not a "second chance at freedom"
he fulfilled the terms of his sentence. It’s not a second chance. A second chance would mean he was forgiven of the first offense with no penalty.
by pigskinpundits.com on May 22, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
it’s a second chance because he satisfied the terms of his confinement.
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by August West on May 22, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Example
Tank Johnson on a FELONY weapons charge!!!!
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
was arrested on felony charges
misdemeanors are all that stuck. try again.
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by hal41605 on May 22, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plead
Plead guilty to felony charges and served 4 months in the fed. Homework was done on this one!
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Link please
Cause I thought I had done my homework too!
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quote from wikipedia (the be all, end all source)
On April 30, Johnson pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor weapons charge as part of an arrangement with prosecutors that will keep him from serving additional jail time. He was sentenced to 45 days in jail, which was served concurrently with a four-month sentence he’s already serving in the Cook County Jail for violating his probation; to donate $2,500 to the Gurnee Police Department and $2,500 to the Gurnee Exchange Club’s child abuse prevention program.23 While he was in jail, many of his teammates and coaches, including Brian Urlacher, Rex Grossman, and Lovie Smith visited Johnson.24 His release from jail on May 13 ended his legal problems from the December 2006 weapons incident.25 The league ultimately suspended Johnson for half of the regular season on June 4.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
link
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-04-09-conduct-policy_N.htm
not sure how to do it all cool like you did, but it is from USA Today
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
Back to the drawing board. It seems we have disagreeing sources.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another misdemeanor article
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2916083
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And another
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=3900610
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So we still don't have one.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't think there has been a player in the NFL after a felony conviction
Is Goodell going to allow Vick to be the first?
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many times are you going
to reply to yourself?
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by Jimmy on May 22, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
is it time to go all the way out to the margins again?
that was good stuff back in the day…
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by August West on May 22, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
26
I have some work to do……….
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure on this one
Some states it is some it is not, Wikipedia isnt clear, but here goes…….Leonard Little Involuntary Manslaughter Felony
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I can't figure him out
Whether that was a felony or not.
I know when he got his DUI AFTER the DUI during which he killed somone, they did not convict him of the felony DUI, only speeding.
There is a perfect example of someone who should not be in the NFL.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
two more
Lawrence Phillips RB for the Dolphins, and The most easily forgotten Jamal Lewis Felony Drug Trafficing
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah Jamal Lewis. There you go. :(
now with less meyton panning.
by Pride of the Southland on May 22, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing about that is
Jamal Lewis’ felony was not from the drug case—he plead guilty to using a cell phone to set up a drug transaction or some crap
But it was from a shoplifting plea in 1997!
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I cannot find anything about Phillips being convicted with a felony while he was playing.
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by gramsey712 on May 22, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freedom
Would mean that he SHOULD be allowed to be reinstated into the NFL! Otherwise it would be called Freedom with one exception.
Someone once said "Vince Young bleeds two toned blue!" But I disagree, because The Great One Doesnt Bleed!!
by Vincanity on May 22, 2009 1:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not speaking for others
but here’s what my stance is:
5) Teams have the ability to sign who they want. I‘m not infringing on that or saying that the Commish should give Vick a lifetime ban; it’s merely my contention that signing Vick is an unconscionable, indefensible move on a moral level.
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by August West on May 22, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Barry Switzer carry a loaded gun through an airport screening?
Was that a felony? Not sure, but I’m sure if we dug deep enough, there would be plenty of NFL players, coaches, and staff with a criminal record.
Is the terms of hire for the NFL that you have a clean criminal record?
by pigskinpundits.com on May 22, 2009 1:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
aint this whole Vick thing
an overestimation of dogs? Man, i have three dogs and love them.
But i never heard nothing like this when Marshawn Lynch hit and run a pedestrian. None of this happened when Donte Stallworth killed a man in a hit and run. Also, there’s a lot of players whom beat their wives and girlfriends, and no one remember that (James Harrison was one of it.) Nothing like “BAN LYNCH, STALLWORTH, HARRINSON lifetime.” And also Vick served for his wrongdoings, differently from the others.
Dont know. It seems like the writers and the people are caring more about some dogs than to a human being.
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by v1nc3_pr1nc3 on May 22, 2009 4:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And who's job is it anyways?
I kinda agree… but even more than that, why do we want to make it the NFL’s job to punish Vick?
Vick has already lost an insane amount of money and been jailed. This has destroyed the life that he had.
The judicial system decided that he should serve so much time. That’s there job!!
Why do we want to now make it the NFL’s job to punish these people? I think it’s ludicrous. It is NOT their job. And all the cases you cite of NFL players doing this and that are great examples of possible failings in the legal system… but that should be that.
Sorry, let’s pretend OJ Simpson was still playing when he was on trial for killing his wife and that other dude… if he had been found Not Guilty then should it have been the NFL’s job to punish him anyways… though he was found NOT GUILTY by a court of law?
Yes, we all would’ve known Simpson got away with murder… but that would have been a failing of the legal system and a “miss” on its end.
by Malachorn on May 22, 2009 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Guilty vs Guilty
If the court said Mike Vick was NOT GUILTY, he would be playing now and this conversation wouldn’t be happening.
by Titan in WV on May 25, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is pretty simple for me...
A dog is a living being, innocent from birth until taught otherwise. They deserve to be treated as such.
I have a Rotty named Titan(surprise surprise:).
So many people come to my house and hang out for a bit and can’t believe there is such a thing as a friendly rottwieler. They say things like “he’s so friendly for a Rotty”…
He’s the product of love and compassion. People like Vick give dogs like Titan the reputation they get, and it really pisses me off. I’m tellin you if you broke into my house to steal all of my shit this guy would lick you to death before biting you.
This past week my dog almost died from a tick born disease called Erlichia, he is only 3 yrs old… Thank God we caught it in time… Unfortunately Vick is a soar subject for me right now. You have no idea how many people called me this week to tell me their thoughts and prayers were with our dog. Everyone that comes to this house is touched by the friendship and happiness this dog brings to their lives, even if only for 5 minutes. So anyone that thinks “hey it’s just a dog” is completely out of line. This dog is like one of my kids… NO, that’s not exaggeration… This guy seriously is man’s best friend. The love I get from him when I come home from work every day is unconditional and never ending.
So how would you feel if this was one of your dogs? It easily could be… These type of ignorant, selfish people steal dogs and do horrible things them all of the time.
I have a friend that had his dog stolen and tortured. A friendly neighborhood dog that could easily be coaxed into a car thinking he’s making an new friend. Some asshole took advantage of this dog, drove him up to a gravel pit, tied to the back of a truck, and drove him around till completely exhausted, then dragged around on its face and left for dead… Luckily, 3 days later someone found the dog just in time to save his life… Needless to say he never lived his life the same or to the fullest after that. Limping around with no hair in a lot of areas, and Lord only knows what other mental kind of trauma.
So ask yourself what type of person would do such a thing, even worse things such as electrocution or chair rape? The answer is Michael Vick… Maybe someday given the opportunity it could be humans… Don’t tell me people capable of these type of things aren’t a danger to society.
by Big Bad Bulluck on May 22, 2009 8:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You have got to be shitting me dude........................
I have a Rottweiler named Titan as well. Hes only 8 weeks though. I think Vick should get a second chance to play because no matter what the crime is he did his time, and what kind of message would we send to people if no one got second chances. Don’t get me wrong if they were my dogs I would have killed Vick the same way he did those dogs. Don’t get me wrong I’m a dog lover at heart and think what Vick did was despicable, but at the same time let me quote a bible verse, “let he that is without sin cast the first stone” Jesus Christ. We are all human and we all make mistakes, big and small, no sin is without consiquences and no crime should go unpunished, but no sin is above or below the next, they are all the same in God’s eyes. Sorry for gettin all churchy not ment to offend any, just my opinions on the fact.
Titan 4 Life
by titsahoy on May 26, 2009 3:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh and yes if the Titans signed Vick.....................
I would not be a fan any more.
Titan 4 Life
by titsahoy on May 26, 2009 3:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much is enough?
50 Million in lost earnings, a year and a half in prison, suspended by the NFL, mass humiliation. And still, public debate over whether or not he has paid his debt? This speaks volumes about how screwed up our media-driven society has become. LET the MAN play footbal, if he still wants to!
by cowboyjoker on May 23, 2009 8:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything but # 7 on this list...
I love the Titans, but I could not in good conscience support them if they signed Vick. It’s all that I can do to support them with VY still on the team, though at least his antics aren’t illegal, only demoralizing and potentially detrimental to the team in the locker room and on the field.
The only reason I continued to support them through the Pacman ordeal is because they drafted him, not knowing how that was going to turn out, but got rid of him as soon as it was actually possible. They would KNOW what they were getting into if they hired Vick, so there would be absolutely no excuse for that.
by Titans_Girl on May 23, 2009 2:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It boggles my mind how people can make a dog fighting arrest into such a big issue when we have REAL issues like war, famine, economic collapses and other far more pressing matters going on in this country and world. Vick may be a sick sucker fighting dogs but that is far from being the worst thing going on in sports today. We have athletes getting caught doping that receive far lighter punishments then Vick. I personally think we have our priorities twisted not unlike Vick’s hobbies. If you want to run Vick out of football do it because he sucks as a QB and not because the extremist don’t think he has been punished enough. I like dogs myself but this has went way too far in my perspective. When we want to see human life valued lower then animal life, then we become the guilty with the warped outlook.
by kelticblog on May 23, 2009 10:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm against NFL players
contributing to war and famine as well as dogfighting and illegal gambling.
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by August West on May 25, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
#7
I’m a Titans fan. Nothing can ever change that. Though I would be highly disappointed if Vick was to join the Titans, it would not make me stop being a fan of two-toned blue at all. I know it’s not even comparable, but Pacman probably made a few people stop their loyalty with the Titans. I think that’s ridiculous. Pacman and Vick were players on the team. They do not represent the team as a whole.
But we have nothing to worry about. There is no way in the world that anyone on the Titans, besides Alge, would be content with Vick joining the team.
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by Aditya T (smashville) on May 23, 2009 10:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My rednose pit legend in my pic is why I hope Vick butthole looks like the levy after Katrina from prison.
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by MrNorhtNashville on May 23, 2009 11:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Micheal Vick
I could not agree with the writer of the commantary on Vick anymore if I had written the article myself M. Vick DOESN’T DESERVE TO BE BACK IN THE NFL. Just because he served a few months in a white collar prison in KANAS doesn’t give him any rights at all in fact it should put him at the bottom of the list for favors!!!!!!!!
by Concerned citizen on May 24, 2009 8:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Just because its in Kansas doesn't make it........................
white collar prison, i live in Wichita Kansas, and Leavenworth is a Maximum Federal Penitentiary, don’t get Kansas twisted bud there are some real killers here just like anywhere else, its not all farm land like in the Wizard of Oz. We have had BTK serial killer here plus over the past ten years i lived here there has been multiple quadruple homicides, one of them being a girl that i went to high school with, if you don’t live here then you don’t know what its like.
Titan 4 Life
by titsahoy on May 26, 2009 3:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When all is said and done...
Vick served his time. He is entitled to his freedom and the right to earn a living. He is not entitled to have everyone pretend like nothing ever happened.
Before people jump in and say (for the millionth time) that it was “just a dog” let me be clear as to my standpoint. I think any player who gets busted on a felony charge should lose the right to play in the NFL. I think that any player who gets caught using illegal drugs (even if they are not performance enhancing) should lose the right to play in the NFL. I think that players who get drunk then drive and end up killing or causing permanent injury to innocent bystanders should lose the right to play in the NFL.
I am sick and tired of seeing star athletes get caught up in crimes that would send a regular person to jail get a slap on the wrist, get suspended a few games, then go back to living life like normal.
And for the people that say we shouldn’t make it the NFL’s job to punish people… the NFL has already done that for themselves. How many players have been suspended for breaking the rules or getting into legal trouble even if they didn’t go to jail?
If you got arrested today and sent to prison for a year and a half would your job be waiting on you when you got out? Why should his job be waiting for him? Because he is an athlete? I hope the man finds a job he can enjoy and lives a perfectly normal life. I think he is despicable for the things he did, but as many pointed out he has served his time. I just don’t think he should be able to go back to his life of luxury on the simple merit that he is an athlete. He should be treated just like any normal man off the street who ciommited the same crime and in most cases, their former employers would NOT welcome them back with open arms.
by Titan in WV on May 25, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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