Response to BigBlueShoe

by NE Pumpkineaters on Aug 12, 2008 11:06 PM CDT

For those of you who didn’t notice the post from Big BS earlier this week, here it is:

“If Vince Young does not develop the ability to throw the ball accurately, and with velocity, from the pocket on a consistent basis, your team will never win a thing. This is the NFL, not friggin’ college football. If you think Vince can just run around and make plays, I will merely laugh and enjoy Bob Sanders kicking Vince’s ass again to the tune of 3 sacks and multiple tackles.

QBs in the modern NFL must make the 15 yard, frozen rope throws from the pocket. If they can’t, they are garbage. “Letting Vince lose” will invite players like Sanders, Freeney, Mario, Ryans, and others to destroy him. Players on defense are faster than Vince. They hit harder. And there’s only so much of it a person can take before the body breaks down. Want to know why Manning and Brady are so great? They never get hit (and thus never get hurt) because they move well in the pocket and throw the ball accurately FROM THE POCKET. Vince, however, was hurt much of last year because he got killed early in the season by Bob Sanders. I saw it. You saw it. Vince felt it… all year long. Taking unnecessary shot from DeMeco Ryans and others didn’t help. If you let him just run around and do his thing, then get used to seeing a lot of Kerry Collins, who right now is a better QB than Vince is.

I’m not saying this to troll or make fun of the Titans. I’m just telling you how it is. I think Vince has the talent to throw from the pocket. It just takes hard work and dedication, something Vince lacks (it’s well documented). If he ever develops those traits, Vince will indeed be in the Manning or Brady class. He’s got the talent. If he doesn’t, he’s a draft bust.”

I have to concede that whether Vince Young will be judged ultimately successful in the NFL remains an open question. None of us knows if Vince is going to make this team a champion, maybe the ultimate figure of merit for a successful quarterback. I would like his chances better though if he could spend most of his career handing off to all-pro running backs and throwing to two future hall-of-fame wideouts (sound like anyone we know?) instead of two guys who couldn’t break the top three receiving slots on the Bears and the Jets.

Obviously, Big BS believes that VY will not be successful in this league (this is not the first anti-Vince rant from Mr. BS). I think there is a case to be made for this, arguably a weaker case than the alternative, but a case nonetheless. Big BS is probably capable of making this case, but he undermines his argument by straying from the facts.

Now before we jump to conclusions and assume that Big BS is prevaricating once again, let’s take a closer look at what he wrote. Take for instance his claim that players such as Bob Sanders and Dwight Freeney, players who I like and respect, “destroy” Vince Young (I assume this statement was phrased to inflame the MCMers). I decided to go back and look at the tape to investigate this. Here’s one I found with Sanders spying Young and meeting him in the backfield…

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7244026952315706641&q=source:004825078167197282563&hl=en

Hmmm… that can’t be what Big BS is referring too. Maybe he’s talking about other Colt defenders destroying Young. I found this assessment of the Colts defending VY by Dan Dierdorf:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=385477961174383139&q=source:004825078167197282563&hl=en

It would appear that Big BS is living up to his moniker on this one. Now, full disclosure compels me to concede that Bob Sanders did get a good lick on VY in the last game of the year. However, as has been well documented (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3529616 ), VY was badly hobbled by that point in the season. So I have to give Bob Sanders credit: he got a good shot on VY when he had the mobility of Kerry Collins (Bob Sanders celebrated like he won the Super Bowl on that play BTW, which is understandable given the above video footage).

This brings me to another point that Big BS made: taking huge hits, in particular a huge hit from Bob Sanders early in the season, caused VY’s quad injury. I can’t find any evidence that Bob Sanders put a hard hit on Young in that game. More damning however is the fact that Vince Young suffered the injury that plagued him throughout much of the season (a pulled quad), the injury that Big BS claimed was inflicted by Bob Sanders, on a play where he wasn’t even touched—nearly a full month after the Indy game! It would seem that once again that Big BS is living up to his name.

Now let’s get to the matter of Vince Young’s throwing arm. VY is never going to be as accurate as Troy Aikman, for example. I think Big BS has a point on this one. However, Big BS overplays his hand when attacking VY’s arm strength. This is not the first time he has implicitly criticized the ability of VY to throw the ball with “velocity”. Well, let’s take a look at the tape (again, I decided to go with just Indy footage to drive the point home… for good measure I also threw a run in where Freeney wiffs on VY in the backfield).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8165383271199039471&q=source:004825078167197282563&hl=en

Can we take anything Big BS says seriously? I leave that to you. For me, I think Mr. BS is good for a laugh from time to time.

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Comments

My reposted comment from the response section of zackmann's piece, because I think it got lost in there....

Maybe Jimmy should troll for hits by posting dumbass columns about another team’s player like this one.

I really enjoy BBS has set up a nice out for when VY starts fulfilling his potential: see! He’s more accurate now so I was STILL right eventhough I spent 2+ years saying he’s lazy, possibly gay and a pouter who would never amount to anything!!! Ain’t I awesome!!!

You’re a good writer BBS, but your views on VY are Merril Hoge-level illogical/knee jerk haterism.

VY. wins. games. He did it with a crap defense his rookie year, and he won with a great defense is injury-addled 2nd year. He works hard and he’s a leader of this franchise. Most of us hardcore Titans fans see it, it’s too bad casual fans, lazy national guys and out of market folks don’t.

That’s the truth.

by August West on Aug 13, 2008 8:18 AM CDT reply actions

You know

you’ve beaten a guy in an argument when his only response is, “Well, he’s gay!” That’s pretty pathetic when you don’t even have to think on your feet. You have as much time to reply as you want, and that was the best you could do, BBS?

It's our year.

by kpocyclo on Aug 13, 2008 5:43 PM CDT reply actions

Thanks

First of all, thank you for the long response Fan Post. I do indeed like it very much when rival fans write good, honest Fan Posts to agree or disagree with something I’ve written. I consider it flattery, and I sincerely say thanks. If you thought I was truly full of sh*t, you’d just ignore me (and be right to do so). But since you wrote such a solid reply piece, it makes me feel that my initial article was something worth reading. So again, thank you.

I’m going to take exception to a few things you wrote, because of of them are flat out not true. Here’s one:

Obviously, Big BS believes that VY will not be successful in this league (this is not the first anti-Vince rant from Mr. BS). I think there is a case to be made for this, arguably a weaker case than the alternative, but a case nonetheless. Big BS is probably capable of making this case, but he undermines his argument by straying from the facts.

I never said Vince will not be successful in this league. That’s just not true. What I have stated, from Day 1 of Tennessee’s Vince Young era, is that Vince will not succeed unless he can throw accurately from the pocket. For some dumb, silly reason, Titans fans have fought me tooth and nail on this detail, even though the end result is my assessment was spot on. I speak to many NFL people, including scouts and personnel people. All have said the same thing I’ve said: Vince has the talent, but he will not be a real franchise QB until he learns to read a defense and throw accurately from the pocket. Key here is neither they, nor I, have said he won’t EVER succeed. The closest I’ve come to writing him off is this post, where I wrote Vince lacked the mental toughness to play in this league. Contemplating retirement after a pro bowl (ha!) rookie year because football wasn’t “fun” is about as weak minded as it gets.

If Peyton Manning had said that after his 3-13 rookie year, the press (and many of you) would have roasted him. If he ever said it after any one of those horrid Patriots loses in the playoffs, he’d have been flogged by fans and media alike. You’re lying if you say otherwise. And if Peyton is held to that standard, Vince should not get a pass (even though he does, routinely).

Here’s the second:

Now before we jump to conclusions and assume that Big BS is prevaricating once again, let’s take a closer look at what he wrote. Take for instance his claim that players such as Bob Sanders and Dwight Freeney, players who I like and respect, "destroy" Vince Young (I assume this statement was phrased to inflame the MCMers). I decided to go back and look at the tape to investigate this. Here’s one I found with Sanders spying Young and meeting him in the backfield…

Using cherry-picked video to prove me wrong is pathetic. Utterly pathetic. If your safety had a 11 tackle, 3 sack, 3 QB pressure performance against Peyton Manning in a game where your safety spied Manning all game, I’m pretty sure you’d say Mr. Titans Safety “destroyed” Peyton Manning. Sanders won Defensive Player of the Week after that game, and went on to win DPOY. Vince was flustered all day in that game. Under his guidance, the Titans passing attack managed a paltry 4.1 yards a play. Vince threw for only 182 yards, 1 TD, and lost a fumble. And while there may not have been one big major hit (like, say, Darrell Reid blowing up your punt returner), Bob and other gave Vince numerous shots throughout the game, and they added up. He also got so frustrated with getting hit by Colts defenders that he acted immature in the game, tossing the football at Colts CB Kelvin Hayden after the whistle blew.

Flag.

15 yards.

Titans out of FG range and have to punt. Remember, they lost by 2. That FG would have been nice, don’t you think?

In the second game against Indy, the Colts injured Young, knocking him out of the game. This turned out to be a plus for Tennessee, as Kerry Collins came in and saved the day. Prior to Young going down, the Titans offense (playing against Indy’s second and third string defense) managed a punt, punt, turnover, punt, turnover which lead to an Indy TD. Colts up 10-7. Titans offense looks dreadful. Season looking over. Next Titans possession Young gets hurt. He was getting hit all game long. Collins comes in and leads Tennessee on 3 scoring drives, putting them up 16-10, and into the playoffs.

It doesn’t get more elementary that that. Vince stinks (punt, punt, TO, punt, TO), gets hurt, Collins comes in, leads offense to three scores, ball game.

So yes, I think it is safe to say Bob Sanders, Dwight Freeney, and the Colts defense “destroyed” Vince Young. If you can’t see my point, I can’t help you. It’s pretty much there, in black and white and powder blue and red and however else the CSS displays the text.

Third:

Now let’s get to the matter of Vince Young’s throwing arm. VY is never going to be as accurate as Troy Aikman, for example. I think Big BS has a point on this one. However, Big BS overplays his hand when attacking VY’s arm strength. This is not the first time he has implicitly criticized the ability of VY to throw the ball with "velocity". Well, let’s take a look at the tape (again, I decided to go with just Indy footage to drive the point home… for good measure I also threw a run in where Freeney wiffs on VY in the backfield).

I don’t know why I need to defend myself on this, but I’ve never said Vince has a weak arm. I challenge you to find me saying that here, on Stampede Blue, or anywhere in the known universe. I’ve said that Vince cannot make the 15 yard out throws from the pocket that all big league QBs must make to be successful. That’s not so much arm strength. Chad Pennington can make those throws. They require accuracy and timing. And if your QB is not accurate, he’s useless. Arm strength, running, size, speed, they’re all useless unless your QB can deliver the ball accurately, on time, with velocity, and in rhythm FROM THE POCKET. Ask any pro coach or scout, and they will tell you that to your face. Vince hasn’t displayed that on a consistent basis, which is why people don’t think he’s a good QB. It’s all those elements combined. So again, cherry-picking one element (BBS said Vince can’t throw with velocity) and trying to disprove it when there are other elements attached that you are ignoring is not going to prove your point.

I thank you for Fan Post, but I advise you to please re-read my posts on Vince, because you’ve misrepresented my opinions here. You’ve skewed, altered, or flat out ignored many things I’ve written about Vince Young. I think you are over-reacting when someone (anyone!) criticizes him even though the criticisms are legit and shared by many.

SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.

by Brad Wells on Aug 13, 2008 8:03 PM CDT reply actions

At least 90% of your criticisms

are of Vince as a pocket passer. That is not who he is. That is not who he ever will be. That is not who he is trying to be.

It's our year.

by kpocyclo on Aug 13, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions

Then yhe'll never be a great NFL QB

And the Titans will lose. A lot.

SB Nation's Indianapolis Colts blogger at Stampede Blue. Please make an account and post a diary, add some comments, and make some noise. Accounts are free, and only require an email address.

by Brad Wells on Aug 14, 2008 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions

Gee... I don't feel "utterly pathetic"

Thank you for writing back. After spending a good part of my evening mixing the video and writing the post, my wife got a good laugh yesterday when I told her that no one read it.

I take issue with several of your comments, but there is little point responding directly. Let’s face it: we all know the facts. It’s just our interpretation—and, of course, our presentation (or misrepresentation)—of those facts that differs. We are coming at this from opposing points of view, and in general we interpret and describe what we know about this in a manner that is consistent with our preconceived ideas about Vince and how football should or should not be played. Therefore, we could go back and forth on this for the next month, each of us presenting his own version of the truth, but I doubt we will make much headway settling the debate.

However, there is a point that I would like to make regarding your incessant criticism of Vince Young (e.g. "Vince Young has sucked as an NFL QB the first two years of his pro career"), and I can’t write it better than this:

“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.” – Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

Chuck D said it nearly as well when responding to his critics: DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE.

I highly recommend that everyone click on the link.

by NE Pumpkineaters on Aug 14, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions

We read it.

You just said everything, so there was no need for us to respond.

by hartley on Aug 14, 2008 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions

Just for the sake of it...

Let me reiterate that I’m not a Titans fan, but if I was… well, let me take what you said and rework it a little bit for fun:

"Thanks.

"First of all, thank you for another long article on Stampede Blue. I do indeed like it very much when rival fans write good, honest articles to agree or disagree with something I’ve written. I consider it flattery, and I sincerely say thanks. If you thought I was truly full of sh*t, you’d just ignore me (and be right to do so). But since you have written not one, but several pieces trying to refute positive notions on VY, it makes me feel that my VY support is something worth reading. So again, thank you.

“Indeed, the fact that you devote long articles to this topic means that you really do not view such differing opinions as the ‘ignorant bile’ that you have said it to be in your article. For that, I take it as great compliment that my opinions on Vince are not so blind and stupid that they are beneath your time. Thanks.”

by TheElusiveShadow on Aug 14, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions

"Prior to Young going down, the Titans offense (playing against Indy’s second and third string defense) managed a punt, punt, turnover, punt, turnover which lead to an Indy TD. Colts up 10-7."

Maybe you don’t realize that the drive you left off of that list way a 79 yard TD drive with several nice throws by VY, and that the 2 fumbles were by running backs, and could in no way be attributed to Vince.

So the fact that the offense had to punt 3 times shows that VY is terrible? Once again, the problem was you guys lacking perspective on the fact that a 2nd year QB had an OK, certainly not great, game.

by August West on Aug 14, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions